Rank down tickets for Zemo and Kraven…

Death33 · July 16

It’s ridiculous. Never heard it was a bug and ranked him. Absolutely bs

Graves_3 · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:

Drago_von_Drago said:

GroundedWisdom said:

SecondSkriller said:

GroundedWisdom said:
It's not that random. Anyone who frequents the Forum is aware of it.
I think it's getting more hate than necessary. Granted, they've had issues keeping it updated, and it's been a work in progress, however it's what we asked for.
Players have been asking for years for a place to post issues that are being reported or investigated. This was an effort to accommodate that.
You know, communication slipping is one thing. I respect when people point that out. It's another to berate the efforts they actually make. Regardless of your feelings, they're still putting in effort.
Listen, you said you’re not a villain, then trust, I play the game since 2015 and have been on the forums since 2017, I never knew about it, it’s got like 9.2k views. This thread has more than double… you gotta trust us that we ain’t lying.
I've been around for 7 and a half years. I'm not new. I was on this Forum, and the last. Both cases, there is a lack or acknowledgement for the efforts they do make.
I'm not suggesting people praise Trello, or Kabam. I understand the issue is it wasn't visible for some people. I get it. That doesn't mean we need to take a deuce on the fact that they did make efforts. Through a venue that people asked for. Crossed wires, failure in communication, sure.
In order for communication to take place, both sides must be willing to meet each other. Not just demands.
The burden to foster that kind of player/dev relationship and communication is on the company. This kind of decision doesn’t help that. They admitted to several failures in this situation but then fall back to “we put it on the Trello almost 3 months after he was released so no rank down tickets for you”.

Trello is getting the heat because they put a spotlight on the issue by pointing to it as the main reason for not issuing RDTs.

I actually think it’s important for everyone to express their confusion about Trello. The response implies Kabam puts a lot of value in it and the community clearly does not. That’s a major problem and the more people that point it out, the easier it is for Miike and Jax to point out to the dev team.
That "burden" is on both sides. All too often I've seen people cite transparency, and in the same token complain about their efforts. Communication takes two sides. When one side fails and acknowledges it, that's worth something. Not the expectation that they should have known better.
They did make a communication. They realized it fell short and made a direct address from the Devs themselves. Something that doesn't happen often.
The Trello board was something that fell short, no doubt. When people are acting like it doesn't even exist, when it's been posted here for months and months, that's not entirely their fault.

Nobody said they should have known better. When they acknowledge that they failed to communicate, some sort of restitution is required and in this case, RDT for zemo in addition to kraven is warranted.

GroundedWisdom · July 16

SecondSkriller said:

GroundedWisdom said:

SecondSkriller said:

GroundedWisdom said:
It's not that random. Anyone who frequents the Forum is aware of it.
I think it's getting more hate than necessary. Granted, they've had issues keeping it updated, and it's been a work in progress, however it's what we asked for.
Players have been asking for years for a place to post issues that are being reported or investigated. This was an effort to accommodate that.
You know, communication slipping is one thing. I respect when people point that out. It's another to berate the efforts they actually make. Regardless of your feelings, they're still putting in effort.
Listen, you said you’re not a villain, then trust, I play the game since 2015 and have been on the forums since 2017, I never knew about it, it’s got like 9.2k views. This thread has more than double… you gotta trust us that we ain’t lying.
I've been around for 7 and a half years. I'm not new. I was on this Forum, and the last. Both cases, there is a lack or acknowledgement for the efforts they do make.
I'm not suggesting people praise Trello, or Kabam. I understand the issue is it wasn't visible for some people. I get it. That doesn't mean we need to take a deuce on the fact that they did make efforts. Through a venue that people asked for. Crossed wires, failure in communication, sure.
In order for communication to take place, both sides must be willing to meet each other. Not just demands.
And you support the company or the people that are now disappointed? You do know rank down tickets are nothing right? The resources spent on the game, real money, is gone and in return we have a champion that is sub par. He didn’t use to be this way, so no matter their effort, why yould you not wish for the people to receive this champion’s resources back in-game? Kabam is losing nothing here… the only ones potentially winning are the players.

I support both, actually. The company is made of people, just like the Players. All trying to do a job.
I don't subscribe to the idea that it's "nothing". Everything in the game represents hours of work.
If you're asking me to support RDTs, I don't. I wish they were never programmed. They were introduced for a very specific purpose, and we've never heard the end of them.
Everytime they're given, that purpose is misconstrued, and it just feeds people asking for more.
I'm not ignorant to the fact that people spent time, energy, and money Ranking Champs. However, it's their product. They have the right to change it as is needed. That much is outlined in the ToS.
They're as accommodating as possible in these instances. More than I would be because unless it applies to major changes to a way a Champ is intended to perform, I don't agree it applies.
There are no end-user purchases in a game like this. It's not even a purchase for ownership. It's a lease to use their product, and as much as people call them "Kascam" and cry about Bait-And-Switch, and claim precedence, they've shown a consistent ability to take responsibility and make things right whenever they can. That doesn't always translate into giving people EVERYTHING they want. Just as much as they can, as appropriately as they can, without infringing on design constraints.
Go ahead, be mad. Just stop and realize they do more than people are letting on when they grab the pitchforks. Not because I'm "pro-Kabam", because it's the truth.

BeastDad · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:

SecondSkriller said:

GroundedWisdom said:

SecondSkriller said:

GroundedWisdom said:
It's not that random. Anyone who frequents the Forum is aware of it.
I think it's getting more hate than necessary. Granted, they've had issues keeping it updated, and it's been a work in progress, however it's what we asked for.
Players have been asking for years for a place to post issues that are being reported or investigated. This was an effort to accommodate that.
You know, communication slipping is one thing. I respect when people point that out. It's another to berate the efforts they actually make. Regardless of your feelings, they're still putting in effort.
Listen, you said you’re not a villain, then trust, I play the game since 2015 and have been on the forums since 2017, I never knew about it, it’s got like 9.2k views. This thread has more than double… you gotta trust us that we ain’t lying.
I've been around for 7 and a half years. I'm not new. I was on this Forum, and the last. Both cases, there is a lack or acknowledgement for the efforts they do make.
I'm not suggesting people praise Trello, or Kabam. I understand the issue is it wasn't visible for some people. I get it. That doesn't mean we need to take a deuce on the fact that they did make efforts. Through a venue that people asked for. Crossed wires, failure in communication, sure.
In order for communication to take place, both sides must be willing to meet each other. Not just demands.
And you support the company or the people that are now disappointed? You do know rank down tickets are nothing right? The resources spent on the game, real money, is gone and in return we have a champion that is sub par. He didn’t use to be this way, so no matter their effort, why yould you not wish for the people to receive this champion’s resources back in-game? Kabam is losing nothing here… the only ones potentially winning are the players.
I support both, actually. The company is made of people, just like the Players. All trying to do a job.
I don't subscribe to the idea that it's "nothing". Everything in the game represents hours of work.
If you're asking me to support RDTs, I don't. I wish they were never programmed. They were introduced for a very specific purpose, and we've never heard the end of them.
Everytime they're given, that purpose is misconstrued, and it just feeds people asking for more.
I'm not ignorant to the fact that people spent time, energy, and money Ranking Champs. However, it's their product. They have the right to change it as is needed. That much is outlined in the ToS.
They're as accommodating as possible in these instances. More than I would be because unless it applies to major changes to a way a Champ is intended to perform, I don't agree it applies.
There are no end-user purchases in a game like this. It's not even a purchase for ownership. It's a lease to use their product, and as much as people call them "Kascam" and cry about Bait-And-Switch, and claim precedence, they've shown a consistent ability to take responsibility and make things right whenever they can. That doesn't always translate into giving people EVERYTHING they want. Just as much as they can, as appropriately as they can, without infringing on design constraints.
Go ahead, be mad. Just stop and realize they do more than people are letting on when they grab the pitchforks. Not because I'm "pro-Kabam", because it's the truth.

This is scary narrative right here and not backed up by anything remotely resembling fair business practices.

When a company makes a mistake, the absolute least they can do is make it right. A clear bait and switch happened, and you know it just as well as everyone else.

I can tell you one thing for certain, my credit card will be turned off for this game until this is resolved in a fair and balanced way and I am betting I will not be alone.

[Deleted User] · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:

SecondSkriller said:

GroundedWisdom said:

SecondSkriller said:

GroundedWisdom said:
It's not that random. Anyone who frequents the Forum is aware of it.
I think it's getting more hate than necessary. Granted, they've had issues keeping it updated, and it's been a work in progress, however it's what we asked for.
Players have been asking for years for a place to post issues that are being reported or investigated. This was an effort to accommodate that.
You know, communication slipping is one thing. I respect when people point that out. It's another to berate the efforts they actually make. Regardless of your feelings, they're still putting in effort.
Listen, you said you’re not a villain, then trust, I play the game since 2015 and have been on the forums since 2017, I never knew about it, it’s got like 9.2k views. This thread has more than double… you gotta trust us that we ain’t lying.
I've been around for 7 and a half years. I'm not new. I was on this Forum, and the last. Both cases, there is a lack or acknowledgement for the efforts they do make.
I'm not suggesting people praise Trello, or Kabam. I understand the issue is it wasn't visible for some people. I get it. That doesn't mean we need to take a deuce on the fact that they did make efforts. Through a venue that people asked for. Crossed wires, failure in communication, sure.
In order for communication to take place, both sides must be willing to meet each other. Not just demands.
And you support the company or the people that are now disappointed? You do know rank down tickets are nothing right? The resources spent on the game, real money, is gone and in return we have a champion that is sub par. He didn’t use to be this way, so no matter their effort, why yould you not wish for the people to receive this champion’s resources back in-game? Kabam is losing nothing here… the only ones potentially winning are the players.

Go ahead, be mad. Just stop and realize they do more than people are letting on when they grab the pitchforks. Not because I'm "pro-Kabam", because it's the truth.

Just take a second. Imagine what the forums would look like today if they had given RDT's for both Kraven and Zemo, and then promised to make all future announcements into detailed forum posts. The way things are going is not due to the players misjudgment of Kabam. It's not due to the players at all.

Darkness275 · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:

That "burden" is on both sides. All too often I've seen people cite transparency, and in the same token complain about their efforts. Communication takes two sides. When one side fails and acknowledges it, that's worth something. Not the expectation that they should have known better.
They did make a communication. They realized it fell short and made a direct address from the Devs themselves. Something that doesn't happen often.
The Trello board was something that fell short, no doubt. When people are acting like it doesn't even exist, when it's been posted here for months and months, that's not entirely their fault.

You're a smart person, which is how I know you're intentionally being obtuse and trying to obfuscate the point.

People aren't JUST dogging on Trello, and even those who are, are doing so with purpose. Because the real issue here is the decision to not issue RDT for Zemo.

Kabam acknowledged that their communication was bad and they could have done better. The acknowledged that they intentionally didn't communicate it through other means and that this was a mistake. They promised to do better.

All of that, is amazing. I can't actually stress that enough. That accountability is fantastic and is honestly something they might not have done a couple of years ago. I concede to your point that the player base absolutely needs to give Kabam more props for this.

And, more of the player base probably would.... IF Kabam didn't follow it up in the very next sentence by attempting to use the communication they acknowledge wasn't done properly, as a means of saying "Well, we upheld our side of the bargain and communicated this during the three month period."

That's dealing in bad faith. You know it, I know it, they know it.

You don't like RDT, that's valid. TBH, I don't either. But not a single person has asked you to support them and I don't think a single person here cares whether or not you do.

Fact of the matter is, they do exist whether you support/like them or not and Kabam has set the precedent for their use. So yeah, people will cite precedent, because it's a business practice and you can act like ToS covers Kabam to make any and all decisions they want and we have no power, but businesses have responsibilities to their customers... and you know that.

This IS a change to the character that alters the way they function.
It actually doesn't matter if it's a less efficient rotation, it alters the way people use Zemo.

RDT are actually pretty rare. They're not issued frequently because Kabam doesn't make mistakes like this often. Do I think they should get celebrated more frequently? Yes. Humanity is polarized towards the negative and we focus more on things we don't like... it's not fair but it's why the more vocal things are almost always complaints.

But when Kabam does make a mistake with a champion and then alter them in a way that changes their functionality, a RDT is warranted. Kabam acknowledges that, they're just trying to hold to line that separates Zemo and Kraven. "Zemo's issue was referenced... we owe you nothing. Kraven though, yeah we never referenced that so here's a RDT." Which might be valid, if their attempts to communicate with us was in any way efficient - which they themselves admitted was not the case.

Let's not pretend that issuing a RDT is some big company breaking moment that's going to bring Kabam to their knees or impact their PNL. You don't subscribe to the stance that "it's nothing" because it's work for someone to do. That's fair, I concede that point, but when players say "it's nothing" they're referencing the fact that many of them spent time, effort and/or money getting Zemo to that rank, only to have the product changed on them. So why is all of their time/effort/money less valued? "It's nothing" is a reference to the fact that it's minimal effort required from Kabam to make the situation right. But you already know that's what it means.

Someone has to put in the work to send out an in game E-Mail with champion specific RDT? Someone has to program those and make sure they can't work on other champions? You're absolutely right. But that falls on the company, because it was their mistake and oversight.

Kabam can either stand by their acknowledgement that the communication wasn't done properly, which gives credence to the argument that the players should be compensated because they weren't actually informed. Or Kabam stands by their belief that adequate communication was made and it was done in a timely manner, thus they upheld their end of the bargain and have no responsibility to make the players whole because "it was brought up during the rebalancing period and it's the players fault for not checking the notes."

They can't realistically have it both ways.

Jaymix79 · July 16

Thread should be closed after this last post. Well put @Darkness275

GroundedWisdom · July 16

This right here is why I say something. These conversations are so one-sided they kill themselves off. "Give us what we ask for an

Darkness275 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

That "burden" is on both sides. All too often I've seen people cite transparency, and in the same token complain about their efforts. Communication takes two sides. When one side fails and acknowledges it, that's worth something. Not the expectation that they should have known better.
They did make a communication. They realized it fell short and made a direct address from the Devs themselves. Something that doesn't happen often.
The Trello board was something that fell short, no doubt. When people are acting like it doesn't even exist, when it's been posted here for months and months, that's not entirely their fault.
You're a smart person, which is how I know you're intentionally being obtuse and trying to obfuscate the point.

People aren't JUST dogging on Trello, and even those who are, are doing so with purpose. Because the real issue here is the decision to not issue RDT for Zemo.

Kabam acknowledged that their communication was bad and they could have done better. The acknowledged that they intentionally didn't communicate it through other means and that this was a mistake. They promised to do better.

All of that, is amazing. I can't actually stress that enough. That accountability is fantastic and is honestly something they might not have done a couple of years ago. I concede to your point that the player base absolutely needs to give Kabam more props for this.

And, more of the player base probably would.... IF Kabam didn't follow it up in the very next sentence by attempting to use the communication they acknowledge wasn't done properly, as a means of saying "Well, we upheld our side of the bargain and communicated this during the three month period."

That's dealing in bad faith. You know it, I know it, they know it.

You don't like RDT, that's valid. TBH, I don't either. But not a single person has asked you to support them and I don't think a single person here cares whether or not you do.

Fact of the matter is, they do exist whether you support/like them or not and Kabam has set the precedent for their use. So yeah, people will cite precedent, because it's a business practice and you can act like ToS covers Kabam to make any and all decisions they want and we have no power, but businesses have responsibilities to their customers... and you know that.

This IS a change to the character that alters the way they function.
It actually doesn't matter if it's a less efficient rotation, it alters the way people use Zemo.

RDT are actually pretty rare. They're not issued frequently because Kabam doesn't make mistakes like this often. Do I think they should get celebrated more frequently? Yes. Humanity is polarized towards the negative and we focus more on things we don't like... it's not fair but it's why the more vocal things are almost always complaints.

But when Kabam does make a mistake with a champion and then alter them in a way that changes their functionality, a RDT is warranted. Kabam acknowledges that, they're just trying to hold to line that separates Zemo and Kraven. "Zemo's issue was referenced... we owe you nothing. Kraven though, yeah we never referenced that so here's a RDT." Which might be valid, if their attempts to communicate with us was in any way efficient - which they themselves admitted was not the case.

Let's not pretend that issuing a RDT is some big company breaking moment that's going to bring Kabam to their knees or impact their PNL. You don't subscribe to the stance that "it's nothing" because it's work for someone to do. That's fair, I concede that point, but when players say "it's nothing" they're referencing the fact that many of them spent time, effort and/or money getting Zemo to that rank, only to have the product changed on them. So why is all of their time/effort/money less valued? "It's nothing" is a reference to the fact that it's minimal effort required from Kabam to make the situation right. But you already know that's what it means.

Someone has to put in the work to send out an in game E-Mail with champion specific RDT? Someone has to program those and make sure they can't work on other champions? You're absolutely right. But that falls on the company, because it was their mistake and oversight.

Kabam can either stand by their acknowledgement that the communication wasn't done properly, which gives credence to the argument that the players should be compensated because they weren't actually informed. Or Kabam stands by their belief that adequate communication was made and it was done in a timely manner, thus they upheld their end of the bargain and have no responsibility to make the players whole because "it was brought up during the rebalancing period and it's the players fault for not checking the notes."

They can't realistically have it both ways.

Just because I'm a smart person doesn't mean I'm an a#^-^le. I'm talking about equal respect.
I'm not trying to obfuscate anything. I'm speaking to the other side of the negative compendium that's always posted here. There is more than one side to this, other than "You owe us!".
The majority of this is redundant. They've taken responsibility for their communication error. That may not look like RDTs for all, but that's the reality of it.
These things always end up in a delitany of wrong-doings, and that perspective lacks acknowledgement of what they're actually doing. There's no denying that.
No one said it was the Players' fault. That doesn't mean it's an automatic path to what people would prefer is the outcome. I'm sorry, but that's just a reality.
An effort was made to rectify it, and because that effort doesn't include Tickets for all Champs affected (which I pointed out wasn't a likely possibility), there is an outpouring of reactions.
I'm not new here. Nor am I telling people to stop posting their views. What I am pointing out, is it isn't cut-and-dry. It isn't "Kabam evil, Players victims.". There are efforts on their part, and wanting respect without giving it in return isn't fair. It's indignation.
Believe me, if you think I have any control over the reactions, I don't. That doesn't mean I'm not going to speak the truth, even when it's not what people want to admit.

HungaryHippo · July 16

At least one CCP member wishes they could rank down their Zemo so maybe something comes off it.

Kabam is not going to let us have anymore Hercs, Dooms, HT, Ghost, KP, or Kitty. They don’t want us trivializing the game when they can be trivializing our wallets.

[Deleted User] · July 16

HungaryHippo said:
At least one CCP member wishes they could rank down their Zemo so maybe something comes off it.

I honestly doubt they won't issue the tickets at this point. This would set such a negative precedent in players minds that Kabam can just ruin champions people spend hundreds ranking up without putting in real effort to let players know. At least every other situation people still talk about had a happy ending. Players are already gonna have a hard enough time trusting rebalance posts after all this

Caleb1705 · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:
This right here is why I say something. These conversations are so one-sided they kill themselves off. "Give us what we ask for an
Darkness275 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

That "burden" is on both sides. All too often I've seen people cite transparency, and in the same token complain about their efforts. Communication takes two sides. When one side fails and acknowledges it, that's worth something. Not the expectation that they should have known better.
They did make a communication. They realized it fell short and made a direct address from the Devs themselves. Something that doesn't happen often.
The Trello board was something that fell short, no doubt. When people are acting like it doesn't even exist, when it's been posted here for months and months, that's not entirely their fault.
You're a smart person, which is how I know you're intentionally being obtuse and trying to obfuscate the point.

People aren't JUST dogging on Trello, and even those who are, are doing so with purpose. Because the real issue here is the decision to not issue RDT for Zemo.

Kabam acknowledged that their communication was bad and they could have done better. The acknowledged that they intentionally didn't communicate it through other means and that this was a mistake. They promised to do better.

All of that, is amazing. I can't actually stress that enough. That accountability is fantastic and is honestly something they might not have done a couple of years ago. I concede to your point that the player base absolutely needs to give Kabam more props for this.

And, more of the player base probably would.... IF Kabam didn't follow it up in the very next sentence by attempting to use the communication they acknowledge wasn't done properly, as a means of saying "Well, we upheld our side of the bargain and communicated this during the three month period."

That's dealing in bad faith. You know it, I know it, they know it.

You don't like RDT, that's valid. TBH, I don't either. But not a single person has asked you to support them and I don't think a single person here cares whether or not you do.

Fact of the matter is, they do exist whether you support/like them or not and Kabam has set the precedent for their use. So yeah, people will cite precedent, because it's a business practice and you can act like ToS covers Kabam to make any and all decisions they want and we have no power, but businesses have responsibilities to their customers... and you know that.

This IS a change to the character that alters the way they function.
It actually doesn't matter if it's a less efficient rotation, it alters the way people use Zemo.

RDT are actually pretty rare. They're not issued frequently because Kabam doesn't make mistakes like this often. Do I think they should get celebrated more frequently? Yes. Humanity is polarized towards the negative and we focus more on things we don't like... it's not fair but it's why the more vocal things are almost always complaints.

But when Kabam does make a mistake with a champion and then alter them in a way that changes their functionality, a RDT is warranted. Kabam acknowledges that, they're just trying to hold to line that separates Zemo and Kraven. "Zemo's issue was referenced... we owe you nothing. Kraven though, yeah we never referenced that so here's a RDT." Which might be valid, if their attempts to communicate with us was in any way efficient - which they themselves admitted was not the case.

Let's not pretend that issuing a RDT is some big company breaking moment that's going to bring Kabam to their knees or impact their PNL. You don't subscribe to the stance that "it's nothing" because it's work for someone to do. That's fair, I concede that point, but when players say "it's nothing" they're referencing the fact that many of them spent time, effort and/or money getting Zemo to that rank, only to have the product changed on them. So why is all of their time/effort/money less valued? "It's nothing" is a reference to the fact that it's minimal effort required from Kabam to make the situation right. But you already know that's what it means.

Someone has to put in the work to send out an in game E-Mail with champion specific RDT? Someone has to program those and make sure they can't work on other champions? You're absolutely right. But that falls on the company, because it was their mistake and oversight.

Kabam can either stand by their acknowledgement that the communication wasn't done properly, which gives credence to the argument that the players should be compensated because they weren't actually informed. Or Kabam stands by their belief that adequate communication was made and it was done in a timely manner, thus they upheld their end of the bargain and have no responsibility to make the players whole because "it was brought up during the rebalancing period and it's the players fault for not checking the notes."

They can't realistically have it both ways.
Just because I'm a smart person doesn't mean I'm an a#^-^le. I'm talking about equal respect.
I'm not trying to obfuscate anything. I'm speaking to the other side of the negative compendium that's always posted here. There is more than one side to this, other than "You owe us!".
The majority of this is redundant. They've taken responsibility for their communication error. That may not look like RDTs for all, but that's the reality of it.
These things always end up in a delitany of wrong-doings, and that perspective lacks acknowledgement of what they're actually doing. There's no denying that.
No one said it was the Players' fault. That doesn't mean it's an automatic path to what people would prefer is the outcome. I'm sorry, but that's just a reality.
An effort was made to rectify it, and because that effort doesn't include Tickets for all Champs affected (which I pointed out wasn't a likely possibility), there is an outpouring of reactions.
I'm not new here. Nor am I telling people to stop posting their views. What I am pointing out, is it isn't cut-and-dry. It isn't "Kabam evil, Players victims.". There are efforts on their part, and wanting respect without giving it in return isn't fair. It's indignation.
Believe me, if you think I have any control over the reactions, I don't. That doesn't mean I'm not going to speak the truth, even when it's not what people want to admit.

You literally quoted a response saying that what Kabam has done so far is amazing as a means to say that the community demands respect without giving any in return my guy. Yes, kabam has taken measures to address the issue, but as you even say the fault is not at all with the player base. It is just mind boggling that you feel the injured party is not allowed to say that a written apology backed by a half measured action is not enough to fully rectify the situation.

GroundedWisdom · July 16

Caleb1705 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
This right here is why I say something. These conversations are so one-sided they kill themselves off. "Give us what we ask for an
Darkness275 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

That "burden" is on both sides. All too often I've seen people cite transparency, and in the same token complain about their efforts. Communication takes two sides. When one side fails and acknowledges it, that's worth something. Not the expectation that they should have known better.
They did make a communication. They realized it fell short and made a direct address from the Devs themselves. Something that doesn't happen often.
The Trello board was something that fell short, no doubt. When people are acting like it doesn't even exist, when it's been posted here for months and months, that's not entirely their fault.
You're a smart person, which is how I know you're intentionally being obtuse and trying to obfuscate the point.

People aren't JUST dogging on Trello, and even those who are, are doing so with purpose. Because the real issue here is the decision to not issue RDT for Zemo.

Kabam acknowledged that their communication was bad and they could have done better. The acknowledged that they intentionally didn't communicate it through other means and that this was a mistake. They promised to do better.

All of that, is amazing. I can't actually stress that enough. That accountability is fantastic and is honestly something they might not have done a couple of years ago. I concede to your point that the player base absolutely needs to give Kabam more props for this.

And, more of the player base probably would.... IF Kabam didn't follow it up in the very next sentence by attempting to use the communication they acknowledge wasn't done properly, as a means of saying "Well, we upheld our side of the bargain and communicated this during the three month period."

That's dealing in bad faith. You know it, I know it, they know it.

You don't like RDT, that's valid. TBH, I don't either. But not a single person has asked you to support them and I don't think a single person here cares whether or not you do.

Fact of the matter is, they do exist whether you support/like them or not and Kabam has set the precedent for their use. So yeah, people will cite precedent, because it's a business practice and you can act like ToS covers Kabam to make any and all decisions they want and we have no power, but businesses have responsibilities to their customers... and you know that.

This IS a change to the character that alters the way they function.
It actually doesn't matter if it's a less efficient rotation, it alters the way people use Zemo.

RDT are actually pretty rare. They're not issued frequently because Kabam doesn't make mistakes like this often. Do I think they should get celebrated more frequently? Yes. Humanity is polarized towards the negative and we focus more on things we don't like... it's not fair but it's why the more vocal things are almost always complaints.

But when Kabam does make a mistake with a champion and then alter them in a way that changes their functionality, a RDT is warranted. Kabam acknowledges that, they're just trying to hold to line that separates Zemo and Kraven. "Zemo's issue was referenced... we owe you nothing. Kraven though, yeah we never referenced that so here's a RDT." Which might be valid, if their attempts to communicate with us was in any way efficient - which they themselves admitted was not the case.

Let's not pretend that issuing a RDT is some big company breaking moment that's going to bring Kabam to their knees or impact their PNL. You don't subscribe to the stance that "it's nothing" because it's work for someone to do. That's fair, I concede that point, but when players say "it's nothing" they're referencing the fact that many of them spent time, effort and/or money getting Zemo to that rank, only to have the product changed on them. So why is all of their time/effort/money less valued? "It's nothing" is a reference to the fact that it's minimal effort required from Kabam to make the situation right. But you already know that's what it means.

Someone has to put in the work to send out an in game E-Mail with champion specific RDT? Someone has to program those and make sure they can't work on other champions? You're absolutely right. But that falls on the company, because it was their mistake and oversight.

Kabam can either stand by their acknowledgement that the communication wasn't done properly, which gives credence to the argument that the players should be compensated because they weren't actually informed. Or Kabam stands by their belief that adequate communication was made and it was done in a timely manner, thus they upheld their end of the bargain and have no responsibility to make the players whole because "it was brought up during the rebalancing period and it's the players fault for not checking the notes."

They can't realistically have it both ways.
Just because I'm a smart person doesn't mean I'm an a#^-^le. I'm talking about equal respect.
I'm not trying to obfuscate anything. I'm speaking to the other side of the negative compendium that's always posted here. There is more than one side to this, other than "You owe us!".
The majority of this is redundant. They've taken responsibility for their communication error. That may not look like RDTs for all, but that's the reality of it.
These things always end up in a delitany of wrong-doings, and that perspective lacks acknowledgement of what they're actually doing. There's no denying that.
No one said it was the Players' fault. That doesn't mean it's an automatic path to what people would prefer is the outcome. I'm sorry, but that's just a reality.
An effort was made to rectify it, and because that effort doesn't include Tickets for all Champs affected (which I pointed out wasn't a likely possibility), there is an outpouring of reactions.
I'm not new here. Nor am I telling people to stop posting their views. What I am pointing out, is it isn't cut-and-dry. It isn't "Kabam evil, Players victims.". There are efforts on their part, and wanting respect without giving it in return isn't fair. It's indignation.
Believe me, if you think I have any control over the reactions, I don't. That doesn't mean I'm not going to speak the truth, even when it's not what people want to admit.
You literally quoted a response saying that what Kabam has done so far is amazing as a means to say that the community demands respect without giving any in return my guy. Yes, kabam has taken measures to address the issue, but as you even say the fault is not at all with the player base. It is just mind boggling that you feel the injured party is not allowed to say that a written apology backed by a half measured action is not enough to fully rectify the situation.

How did you get any of that from what I said? Other than the part about respect being a two-way street, none of that is what I was implying.

GroundedWisdom · July 16

I never said anything about "amazing". I said they took responsibility. I also said it was more than what I agreed with because of my feelings on RDTs. The point was, any effort they make is ignored, and that's not accurate.
I also specifically said I'm not trying to impede people from expressing themselves, so I don't know where that last bit is coming from.

SecondSkriller · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:
This right here is why I say something. These conversations are so one-sided they kill themselves off. "Give us what we ask for an
Darkness275 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

That "burden" is on both sides. All too often I've seen people cite transparency, and in the same token complain about their efforts. Communication takes two sides. When one side fails and acknowledges it, that's worth something. Not the expectation that they should have known better.
They did make a communication. They realized it fell short and made a direct address from the Devs themselves. Something that doesn't happen often.
The Trello board was something that fell short, no doubt. When people are acting like it doesn't even exist, when it's been posted here for months and months, that's not entirely their fault.
You're a smart person, which is how I know you're intentionally being obtuse and trying to obfuscate the point.

People aren't JUST dogging on Trello, and even those who are, are doing so with purpose. Because the real issue here is the decision to not issue RDT for Zemo.

Kabam acknowledged that their communication was bad and they could have done better. The acknowledged that they intentionally didn't communicate it through other means and that this was a mistake. They promised to do better.

All of that, is amazing. I can't actually stress that enough. That accountability is fantastic and is honestly something they might not have done a couple of years ago. I concede to your point that the player base absolutely needs to give Kabam more props for this.

And, more of the player base probably would.... IF Kabam didn't follow it up in the very next sentence by attempting to use the communication they acknowledge wasn't done properly, as a means of saying "Well, we upheld our side of the bargain and communicated this during the three month period."

That's dealing in bad faith. You know it, I know it, they know it.

You don't like RDT, that's valid. TBH, I don't either. But not a single person has asked you to support them and I don't think a single person here cares whether or not you do.

Fact of the matter is, they do exist whether you support/like them or not and Kabam has set the precedent for their use. So yeah, people will cite precedent, because it's a business practice and you can act like ToS covers Kabam to make any and all decisions they want and we have no power, but businesses have responsibilities to their customers... and you know that.

This IS a change to the character that alters the way they function.
It actually doesn't matter if it's a less efficient rotation, it alters the way people use Zemo.

RDT are actually pretty rare. They're not issued frequently because Kabam doesn't make mistakes like this often. Do I think they should get celebrated more frequently? Yes. Humanity is polarized towards the negative and we focus more on things we don't like... it's not fair but it's why the more vocal things are almost always complaints.

But when Kabam does make a mistake with a champion and then alter them in a way that changes their functionality, a RDT is warranted. Kabam acknowledges that, they're just trying to hold to line that separates Zemo and Kraven. "Zemo's issue was referenced... we owe you nothing. Kraven though, yeah we never referenced that so here's a RDT." Which might be valid, if their attempts to communicate with us was in any way efficient - which they themselves admitted was not the case.

Let's not pretend that issuing a RDT is some big company breaking moment that's going to bring Kabam to their knees or impact their PNL. You don't subscribe to the stance that "it's nothing" because it's work for someone to do. That's fair, I concede that point, but when players say "it's nothing" they're referencing the fact that many of them spent time, effort and/or money getting Zemo to that rank, only to have the product changed on them. So why is all of their time/effort/money less valued? "It's nothing" is a reference to the fact that it's minimal effort required from Kabam to make the situation right. But you already know that's what it means.

Someone has to put in the work to send out an in game E-Mail with champion specific RDT? Someone has to program those and make sure they can't work on other champions? You're absolutely right. But that falls on the company, because it was their mistake and oversight.

Kabam can either stand by their acknowledgement that the communication wasn't done properly, which gives credence to the argument that the players should be compensated because they weren't actually informed. Or Kabam stands by their belief that adequate communication was made and it was done in a timely manner, thus they upheld their end of the bargain and have no responsibility to make the players whole because "it was brought up during the rebalancing period and it's the players fault for not checking the notes."

They can't realistically have it both ways.
Just because I'm a smart person doesn't mean I'm an a#^-^le. I'm talking about equal respect.
I'm not trying to obfuscate anything. I'm speaking to the other side of the negative compendium that's always posted here. There is more than one side to this, other than "You owe us!".
The majority of this is redundant. They've taken responsibility for their communication error. That may not look like RDTs for all, but that's the reality of it.
These things always end up in a delitany of wrong-doings, and that perspective lacks acknowledgement of what they're actually doing. There's no denying that.
No one said it was the Players' fault. That doesn't mean it's an automatic path to what people would prefer is the outcome. I'm sorry, but that's just a reality.
An effort was made to rectify it, and because that effort doesn't include Tickets for all Champs affected (which I pointed out wasn't a likely possibility), there is an outpouring of reactions.
I'm not new here. Nor am I telling people to stop posting their views. What I am pointing out, is it isn't cut-and-dry. It isn't "Kabam evil, Players victims.". There are efforts on their part, and wanting respect without giving it in return isn't fair. It's indignation.
Believe me, if you think I have any control over the reactions, I don't. That doesn't mean I'm not going to speak the truth, even when it's not what people want to admit.

You received such a beautiful reply from @Darkness275 and you gave back this terible reply… you’re not worth arguing with smh

GroundedWisdom · July 16

If by a beautiful reply you mean implying I'm being intentionally obtuse and missing the fact that people just want the Tickets for Zemo too, then that hasn't escaped me. I'm just not much for being patronized.
Also, making things personal isn't going to get you Tickets. I've actually been respectful, considering my feelings on these things. People are talking about a cheese that shouldn't exist in the game. It doesn't take a great deal of consideration to see that.

Caleb1705 · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:
I never said anything about "amazing". I said they took responsibility. I also said it was more than what I agreed with because of my feelings on RDTs. The point was, any effort they make is ignored, and that's not accurate.
I also specifically said I'm not trying to impede people from expressing themselves, so I don't know where that last bit is coming from.

The post you quoted said kabams actions were amazing, and your immediate response was to say the community only ever bashes on them.

The fact of the matter is that kabam made one forum post 6 months ago saying there was a problem with Zemo gaining fury buffs and how it affected the interactions with his root mechanics, and then silently changed the abilities of root mechanics as a function of the game. Yes, kabam has owned up to
1) not announcing that game mechanic change anywhere until after they did it
2) deliberately not elaborating any further than "Zemo is bugged" on their Trello board (which is not accessible anywhere in game or in any of the multiple pinned mod/admin forum posts)
3) deliberately did not include mention of changes to the root mechanic changes in Zemo's balancing update post

The acknowledgement is fantastic, the RDT for Kraven is a great initial step, but the players who have invested into champions whose base kits are dependant on that game mechanic have every right to feel like this is not enough.
Every single one of your comments across the 20 pages of this thread have accomplished anything besides diminishing those very valid feelings and tooting your own horn about how you personally feel about kabam administering compensations. If that hasn't been your intent, you should maybe take a hard look at how you interact with other members of this community across these forum discussions.

GroundedWisdom · July 16

I'm well-aware of the words I type.

I_tell_no_tales_1 · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:
It's not that random. Anyone who frequents the Forum is aware of it.
I think it's getting more hate than necessary. Granted, they've had issues keeping it updated, and it's been a work in progress, however it's what we asked for.
Players have been asking for years for a place to post issues that are being reported or investigated. This was an effort to accommodate that.
You know, communication slipping is one thing. I respect when people point that out. It's another to berate the efforts they actually make. Regardless of your feelings, they're still putting in effort.

Liar
I am an active member of forums since last year
I never knew about it

SecondSkriller · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:
If by a beautiful reply you mean implying I'm being intentionally obtuse and missing the fact that people just want the Tickets for Zemo too, then that hasn't escaped me. I'm just not much for being patronized.
People are talking about a cheese that shouldn't exist in the game.

You’re not the one who decides what "should" and "shouldn’t" exist in the game. Same goes for rank down tickets. Your "feelings" about them simply don’t hold water. They are not even enough in most cases, since sig stones and awakening gems are valuable resources people will never see back. Yet you "don’t like them". Go talk more about how this billion dollar company should be given grace when they can’t even spare a rank down ticket…

I_tell_no_tales_1 · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:

SecondSkriller said:

GroundedWisdom said:

SecondSkriller said:

GroundedWisdom said:
It's not that random. Anyone who frequents the Forum is aware of it.
I think it's getting more hate than necessary. Granted, they've had issues keeping it updated, and it's been a work in progress, however it's what we asked for.
Players have been asking for years for a place to post issues that are being reported or investigated. This was an effort to accommodate that.
You know, communication slipping is one thing. I respect when people point that out. It's another to berate the efforts they actually make. Regardless of your feelings, they're still putting in effort.
Listen, you said you’re not a villain, then trust, I play the game since 2015 and have been on the forums since 2017, I never knew about it, it’s got like 9.2k views. This thread has more than double… you gotta trust us that we ain’t lying.
I've been around for 7 and a half years. I'm not new. I was on this Forum, and the last. Both cases, there is a lack or acknowledgement for the efforts they do make.
I'm not suggesting people praise Trello, or Kabam. I understand the issue is it wasn't visible for some people. I get it. That doesn't mean we need to take a deuce on the fact that they did make efforts. Through a venue that people asked for. Crossed wires, failure in communication, sure.
In order for communication to take place, both sides must be willing to meet each other. Not just demands.
And you support the company or the people that are now disappointed? You do know rank down tickets are nothing right? The resources spent on the game, real money, is gone and in return we have a champion that is sub par. He didn’t use to be this way, so no matter their effort, why yould you not wish for the people to receive this champion’s resources back in-game? Kabam is losing nothing here… the only ones potentially winning are the players.
I support both, actually. The company is made of people, just like the Players. All trying to do a job.
I don't subscribe to the idea that it's "nothing". Everything in the game represents hours of work.
If you're asking me to support RDTs, I don't. I wish they were never programmed. They were introduced for a very specific purpose, and we've never heard the end of them.
Everytime they're given, that purpose is misconstrued, and it just feeds people asking for more.
I'm not ignorant to the fact that people spent time, energy, and money Ranking Champs. However, it's their product. They have the right to change it as is needed. That much is outlined in the ToS.
They're as accommodating as possible in these instances. More than I would be because unless it applies to major changes to a way a Champ is intended to perform, I don't agree it applies.
There are no end-user purchases in a game like this. It's not even a purchase for ownership. It's a lease to use their product, and as much as people call them "Kascam" and cry about Bait-And-Switch, and claim precedence, they've shown a consistent ability to take responsibility and make things right whenever they can. That doesn't always translate into giving people EVERYTHING they want. Just as much as they can, as appropriately as they can, without infringing on design constraints.
Go ahead, be mad. Just stop and realize they do more than people are letting on when they grab the pitchforks. Not because I'm "pro-Kabam", because it's the truth.

Dude you are saying these things as if Trello is some Twitter or FB level social media site that almost the whole world frequents when in reality most of the forum frequenters have asked "What's Trello?"

The effort they made on Trello should have been made on Forums also. You are saying that if you were in their shoes you would have not been this accomodating. But if you were in their shoes, would you not tell your CCP testers about the bug or send an in-game message to everyone who plays the game? Or atleast make a post on the most trusted and frequented mcoc community website, i e, forums??

They indeed made an effort... But the place where they made it makes it seem like they planned to bait and switch(which I hope wasn't what they did).
If you are found next to a murdered person with a bloody knife(with the person's blood) in your hand and no witness beside you or any evidence to tell that you haven't committed the murder, then the police will arrest you and you will probably be convicted and punished for the crime even if you haven't committed it.

You knew about Trello right??
Then you must have known about the bug this whole time right??
Then why didn't you make a comment prior to @Kabam Miike mentioning about the post on Trello in his last message on this thread.
You yourself are the proof that they didn't make a proper communication effort.

If they cared so much about telling us then they would have atleast hinted that Root is in process of being fixed in the countless ranking my 6*Zemo threads or on the YouTube videos of Karatemike or Lagacy or any other CCP member. But they didn't, they chose to remain silent and let the players use their resources while thinking that Zemo and Kraven are not bugged(I wonder why? Maybe because in the past 2 years they never said that there was something wrong with root mechanic).
I don't remember who said this quote but "Silence indicates consent" i.e. if you don't disagree then you automatically agree. For the past 6 months they never disagreed to the notion that Zemo was not bugged.

Think before you reply to this comment.
@DNA3000 , I hope you can also make some breakdown as to whether asking for issuing RDTs is justified or not. Also, did you knew all along this 6 month time period that Root was bugged??

No hate towards anyone(Devs and Miike included). I just want a useful Zemo or the champion I was advertised by Kabam.

I_tell_no_tales_1 · July 16

Darkness275 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

That "burden" is on both sides. All too often I've seen people cite transparency, and in the same token complain about their efforts. Communication takes two sides. When one side fails and acknowledges it, that's worth something. Not the expectation that they should have known better.
They did make a communication. They realized it fell short and made a direct address from the Devs themselves. Something that doesn't happen often.
The Trello board was something that fell short, no doubt. When people are acting like it doesn't even exist, when it's been posted here for months and months, that's not entirely their fault.
You're a smart person, which is how I know you're intentionally being obtuse and trying to obfuscate the point.

People aren't JUST dogging on Trello, and even those who are, are doing so with purpose. Because the real issue here is the decision to not issue RDT for Zemo.

Kabam acknowledged that their communication was bad and they could have done better. The acknowledged that they intentionally didn't communicate it through other means and that this was a mistake. They promised to do better.

All of that, is amazing. I can't actually stress that enough. That accountability is fantastic and is honestly something they might not have done a couple of years ago. I concede to your point that the player base absolutely needs to give Kabam more props for this.

And, more of the player base probably would.... IF Kabam didn't follow it up in the very next sentence by attempting to use the communication they acknowledge wasn't done properly, as a means of saying "Well, we upheld our side of the bargain and communicated this during the three month period."

That's dealing in bad faith. You know it, I know it, they know it.

You don't like RDT, that's valid. TBH, I don't either. But not a single person has asked you to support them and I don't think a single person here cares whether or not you do.

Fact of the matter is, they do exist whether you support/like them or not and Kabam has set the precedent for their use. So yeah, people will cite precedent, because it's a business practice and you can act like ToS covers Kabam to make any and all decisions they want and we have no power, but businesses have responsibilities to their customers... and you know that.

This IS a change to the character that alters the way they function.
It actually doesn't matter if it's a less efficient rotation, it alters the way people use Zemo.

RDT are actually pretty rare. They're not issued frequently because Kabam doesn't make mistakes like this often. Do I think they should get celebrated more frequently? Yes. Humanity is polarized towards the negative and we focus more on things we don't like... it's not fair but it's why the more vocal things are almost always complaints.

But when Kabam does make a mistake with a champion and then alter them in a way that changes their functionality, a RDT is warranted. Kabam acknowledges that, they're just trying to hold to line that separates Zemo and Kraven. "Zemo's issue was referenced... we owe you nothing. Kraven though, yeah we never referenced that so here's a RDT." Which might be valid, if their attempts to communicate with us was in any way efficient - which they themselves admitted was not the case.

Let's not pretend that issuing a RDT is some big company breaking moment that's going to bring Kabam to their knees or impact their PNL. You don't subscribe to the stance that "it's nothing" because it's work for someone to do. That's fair, I concede that point, but when players say "it's nothing" they're referencing the fact that many of them spent time, effort and/or money getting Zemo to that rank, only to have the product changed on them. So why is all of their time/effort/money less valued? "It's nothing" is a reference to the fact that it's minimal effort required from Kabam to make the situation right. But you already know that's what it means.

Someone has to put in the work to send out an in game E-Mail with champion specific RDT? Someone has to program those and make sure they can't work on other champions? You're absolutely right. But that falls on the company, because it was their mistake and oversight.

Kabam can either stand by their acknowledgement that the communication wasn't done properly, which gives credence to the argument that the players should be compensated because they weren't actually informed. Or Kabam stands by their belief that adequate communication was made and it was done in a timely manner, thus they upheld their end of the bargain and have no responsibility to make the players whole because "it was brought up during the rebalancing period and it's the players fault for not checking the notes."

They can't realistically have it both ways.

Haven't agreed with someone this much

I_tell_no_tales_1 · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:
If by a beautiful reply you mean implying I'm being intentionally obtuse and missing the fact that people just want the Tickets for Zemo too, then that hasn't escaped me. I'm just not much for being patronized.
Also, making things personal isn't going to get you Tickets. I've actually been respectful, considering my feelings on these things. People are talking about a cheese that shouldn't exist in the game. It doesn't take a great deal of consideration to see that.

Racism shouldn't exist, no one likes it, but it does exist and people are racist.

[Deleted User] · July 16

I_tell_no_tales_1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
If by a beautiful reply you mean implying I'm being intentionally obtuse and missing the fact that people just want the Tickets for Zemo too, then that hasn't escaped me. I'm just not much for being patronized.
Also, making things personal isn't going to get you Tickets. I've actually been respectful, considering my feelings on these things. People are talking about a cheese that shouldn't exist in the game. It doesn't take a great deal of consideration to see that.
Racism shouldn't exist, no one likes it, but it does exist and people are racist.

This is wildly off topic

I_tell_no_tales_1 · July 16

AngelMcNugget said:

I_tell_no_tales_1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
If by a beautiful reply you mean implying I'm being intentionally obtuse and missing the fact that people just want the Tickets for Zemo too, then that hasn't escaped me. I'm just not much for being patronized.
Also, making things personal isn't going to get you Tickets. I've actually been respectful, considering my feelings on these things. People are talking about a cheese that shouldn't exist in the game. It doesn't take a great deal of consideration to see that.
Racism shouldn't exist, no one likes it, but it does exist and people are racist.
This is wildly off topic

Ahh I was just telling him that there are many things we don't like but they still happen. So him saying that RDTs should not be given to anyone since he doesn't approve of them is unreasonable.

Gonna put more effort in not drifting off the topic. Sorry.

AverageDesi · July 16

I_tell_no_tales_1 said:

AngelMcNugget said:

I_tell_no_tales_1 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
If by a beautiful reply you mean implying I'm being intentionally obtuse and missing the fact that people just want the Tickets for Zemo too, then that hasn't escaped me. I'm just not much for being patronized.
Also, making things personal isn't going to get you Tickets. I've actually been respectful, considering my feelings on these things. People are talking about a cheese that shouldn't exist in the game. It doesn't take a great deal of consideration to see that.
Racism shouldn't exist, no one likes it, but it does exist and people are racist.
This is wildly off topic
Ahh I was just telling him that there are many things we don't like but they still happen. So him saying that RDTs should not be given to anyone since he doesn't approve of them is unreasonable.

Gonna put more effort in not drifting off the topic. Sorry.

I mean, much better analogies out there

Antsiou · July 16

Why do all the controversial forums threads almost always end up in @GroundedWisdom vs the player base at large.
Man, sorry if it’s calling you out personally, but there’s a massive and somehow boring trend where you become the focus instead of the original post. I wish you stayed true to your word to let it rest when you said so a few page back, and that people (Myself included) decided to stay topical as well.
Your voice has been heard.

BigBlueOx · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:
If by a beautiful reply you mean implying I'm being intentionally obtuse and missing the fact that people just want the Tickets for Zemo too, then that hasn't escaped me. I'm just not much for being patronized.
Also, making things personal isn't going to get you Tickets. I've actually been respectful, considering my feelings on these things. People are talking about a cheese that shouldn't exist in the game. It doesn't take a great deal of consideration to see that.

But RDTs are not a cheese. And they do exist. You don’t have to like reality for it to be real. It’s a form of reconciliation that was created for scenarios just like this one.

Cassy · July 16

My Problem with the "No RDT because of trello" is:
I wasn't meant to be used this was in the first place.

Trello board happend to be a thing for Summoner that expierince a bug to look up: is this already known? Is there already a scedule for a fix?

There where (and are) some Champs with broken abbilitys. That take more then 6 month to fix! People can look at trello If they should make a new topic bout a bug or is it already Reportet. It was meant to keep bugreports strait and easy to track for Kabam!

Now Tables turned an we schould look at Something active without expierincing a bug?
Realy?

I remeber the saying that trello is a Developer tool we are lucky to take a glimpse at.

Kabam needs to stay to their established narrative of a Statement or noone can take there Statements serious anymore.

ZeroFrostNinja · July 16

GroundedWisdom said:
This right here is why I say something. These conversations are so one-sided they kill themselves off. "Give us what we ask for an
Darkness275 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

That "burden" is on both sides. All too often I've seen people cite transparency, and in the same token complain about their efforts. Communication takes two sides. When one side fails and acknowledges it, that's worth something. Not the expectation that they should have known better.
They did make a communication. They realized it fell short and made a direct address from the Devs themselves. Something that doesn't happen often.
The Trello board was something that fell short, no doubt. When people are acting like it doesn't even exist, when it's been posted here for months and months, that's not entirely their fault.
You're a smart person, which is how I know you're intentionally being obtuse and trying to obfuscate the point.

People aren't JUST dogging on Trello, and even those who are, are doing so with purpose. Because the real issue here is the decision to not issue RDT for Zemo.

Kabam acknowledged that their communication was bad and they could have done better. The acknowledged that they intentionally didn't communicate it through other means and that this was a mistake. They promised to do better.

All of that, is amazing. I can't actually stress that enough. That accountability is fantastic and is honestly something they might not have done a couple of years ago. I concede to your point that the player base absolutely needs to give Kabam more props for this.

And, more of the player base probably would.... IF Kabam didn't follow it up in the very next sentence by attempting to use the communication they acknowledge wasn't done properly, as a means of saying "Well, we upheld our side of the bargain and communicated this during the three month period."

That's dealing in bad faith. You know it, I know it, they know it.

You don't like RDT, that's valid. TBH, I don't either. But not a single person has asked you to support them and I don't think a single person here cares whether or not you do.

Fact of the matter is, they do exist whether you support/like them or not and Kabam has set the precedent for their use. So yeah, people will cite precedent, because it's a business practice and you can act like ToS covers Kabam to make any and all decisions they want and we have no power, but businesses have responsibilities to their customers... and you know that.

This IS a change to the character that alters the way they function.
It actually doesn't matter if it's a less efficient rotation, it alters the way people use Zemo.

RDT are actually pretty rare. They're not issued frequently because Kabam doesn't make mistakes like this often. Do I think they should get celebrated more frequently? Yes. Humanity is polarized towards the negative and we focus more on things we don't like... it's not fair but it's why the more vocal things are almost always complaints.

But when Kabam does make a mistake with a champion and then alter them in a way that changes their functionality, a RDT is warranted. Kabam acknowledges that, they're just trying to hold to line that separates Zemo and Kraven. "Zemo's issue was referenced... we owe you nothing. Kraven though, yeah we never referenced that so here's a RDT." Which might be valid, if their attempts to communicate with us was in any way efficient - which they themselves admitted was not the case.

Let's not pretend that issuing a RDT is some big company breaking moment that's going to bring Kabam to their knees or impact their PNL. You don't subscribe to the stance that "it's nothing" because it's work for someone to do. That's fair, I concede that point, but when players say "it's nothing" they're referencing the fact that many of them spent time, effort and/or money getting Zemo to that rank, only to have the product changed on them. So why is all of their time/effort/money less valued? "It's nothing" is a reference to the fact that it's minimal effort required from Kabam to make the situation right. But you already know that's what it means.

Someone has to put in the work to send out an in game E-Mail with champion specific RDT? Someone has to program those and make sure they can't work on other champions? You're absolutely right. But that falls on the company, because it was their mistake and oversight.

Kabam can either stand by their acknowledgement that the communication wasn't done properly, which gives credence to the argument that the players should be compensated because they weren't actually informed. Or Kabam stands by their belief that adequate communication was made and it was done in a timely manner, thus they upheld their end of the bargain and have no responsibility to make the players whole because "it was brought up during the rebalancing period and it's the players fault for not checking the notes."

They can't realistically have it both ways.
Just because I'm a smart person doesn't mean I'm an a#^-^le. I'm talking about equal respect.
I'm not trying to obfuscate anything. I'm speaking to the other side of the negative compendium that's always posted here. There is more than one side to this, other than "You owe us!".
The majority of this is redundant. They've taken responsibility for their communication error. That may not look like RDTs for all, but that's the reality of it.
These things always end up in a delitany of wrong-doings, and that perspective lacks acknowledgement of what they're actually doing. There's no denying that.
No one said it was the Players' fault. That doesn't mean it's an automatic path to what people would prefer is the outcome. I'm sorry, but that's just a reality.
An effort was made to rectify it, and because that effort doesn't include Tickets for all Champs affected (which I pointed out wasn't a likely possibility), there is an outpouring of reactions.
I'm not new here. Nor am I telling people to stop posting their views. What I am pointing out, is it isn't cut-and-dry. It isn't "Kabam evil, Players victims.". There are efforts on their part, and wanting respect without giving it in return isn't fair. It's indignation.
Believe me, if you think I have any control over the reactions, I don't. That doesn't mean I'm not going to speak the truth, even when it's not what people want to admit.

I've read through almost all of your replies and the only thing you've said throughout this entire thread is basically "I don't agree with RDT" or "RDT bad" or "I just feel RDTs shouldn't be the precedent" with nothing to back your statements. Going on and on like this with no reasoning or substance behind your argument makes you sound like you're just here because you enjoy arguing with people and have no investment in this game whatsoever. There are people on this thread who are voicing their opinion about a game they genuinely care about and who've put their heart and soul (and money) into this game for years. Their arguments are based on what's fair and what should happen based on precedent. You're free to have an opinion but if all you have got to say in this situation is "Kabam shouldn't give out RDTs because I feel they shouldn't" and "Y'all are being mean to Kabam show some respect" then you should probably go argue on a random subreddit or something because this isn't a place to argue with people just for your amusement.

ThatGuyYouSaw235 · July 16

Even if the existence of the Trello board does show that Kabam does make their progress known on identifying and rectifying bugs, the fact that about 99.9% of players didn't even know it existed (me included, I still can't even find the bloody board itself) really doesn't do much.

If 10% of the community didn't know about the Trello board while the other 90% did, it would be widely accepted that it would be the 10%'s fault as it were clear enough to the vast majority of players represented by the 90%.

This is a 99.999% to 0.001% situation and I say 0.001% very loosely considering that very few people have made it clear that they know about the Trello board let alone check in on it.

This is not a case where the players are at fault. This is a case where Kabam would be at fault because their objective of making their player base know about the progress/existence of bugs in the game has failed in the sense that it has only attracted a minuscule minority of people.

If Pepsi made a limited-time flavour with Lemon and Mineral Water added to it but only advertised it in select pop-up ads in a handful of international news sites and made it online exclusive, it would be probable to predict that it would underperform in sales due to the lack of advertising even considering the brand integrity of Pepsi. You wouldn't blame the people for not buying this Lemon/Mineral Water Pepsi, you would blame Pepsi for not advertising it well. I'm sure that there are more factors in an example such as this, but the substance remains and is near-identical for both the theoretical Pepsi story and the ongoing Root situation.

My suggestion would be to try and utilise the updates tab in-game as most players don't use the Forum, so get the message to them directly. Or perhaps a sort of bug-changelog tab can be made where Kabam informs players of new concerning bugs while also linking the Trello board for people interested in paying attention to the progress of each situation. I have no criticisms with the use of Trello as it is a very useful tool for areas such as these, I've been using Trello for my personal projects for three years and I can back up Kabam's choice of using Trello because it is designed for these sort of things.

The issue lies in the way Kabam has communicated this with the player base and I strongly believe that it would be best for them to improve that aspect drastically so that we don't end up with another trainwreck of a situation such as this moving forward.

Rank down tickets for Zemo and Kraven…

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