There was another similar interaction that had to be addressed with GP. Champs aren't supposed to corner others like that.
Actually, it is the Gwenpool case that has me a bit troubled. Since people are going to make fun of the number of words I use either way, I might as well elaborate.
I've been thinking about whether the She Hulk change deserves compensation. Generally, I'm opposed to rank down tickets for various reasons that I won't enumerate here. But I haven't been able to dismiss the She Hulk change quite so easily, and Gwenpool factors into that problem. First of all, while it might seem obvious from a game design perspective that She Hulk shouldn't be able to so easily combo into a heavy, I don't think that would be obvious to the average player. Animations and timing has always been treated inconsistently by Kabam, and Kabam has never elaborated on the design rules thereof - it is their choice to be relatively closed about the design process, but then they take the burden of that choice
By itself, the animation change wouldn't justify rank down tickets in my opinion, if it were not for the fact that this behavior predates She-Hulk's recent update AND because that update (even if it was only accidentally) leveraged that behavior. There's no question that the changes made to She Hulk are significantly amplified by her combo flexibility, which means it is impossible to untangle her buff from her broken combo timing. A bug is a bug, but when an entire champion update is practically layered on top of a bug, it calls into serious question whether players were making a fair decision when ranking up an updated champion.
Again, game changes happen, and when balancing changes happen players are generally supposed to deal with them. And even though the heavy combo capability isn't *necessary* to leverage her buffed abilities, it is way too closely entangled for me to hand wave away.
But maybe She Hulk was just too good in her current configuration, and we should have all known that. Gwenpool, for example, was simply way too good before she was changed. But Gwenpool actually seems to say the opposite. Gwenpool was too good because she could continuously heavy a defender trapped against the wall and perma-stack bleeds that kept enervate permanently locked onto the target. Because the target could never gain power the target was stuck: the only way for a defender to get out of the corner when they are heavy-chained is to use a special attack, and that can only happen if they can get power. Perma-enervate locks them out of the only escape path from the corner.
This was explicitly discussed as the reason for making the change: heavy chains are okay, lots of champs can do it, but Gwenpool was special because she could heavy chain while also perma-power locking. Not even Magik can do that: she needs to back out of the heavy chain to use SP2, and the devs said that was okay.
Anyone remembering this discussion would conclude that heavy chaining while power locked or power zeroed is bad, because Gwenpool was changed as an exploit, but heavy chaining while gaining power is okay, because Magik was explicitly stated to not be an exploit: she has to let the defender out of the corner even if it is for a short period of time. The conclusion is that the *behavior* of She Hulk is not exploitive, and in and of itself doesn't fall into exploitive behavior.
So the change isn't being made because She Hulk is exploitive, and no player should have assumed it was exploitive. It is being made because it breaks a design rule the average player wouldn't likely know existed. And it changes something closely tied to She Hulk's updated buffed abilities designed to make her more appealing to use and rank up.
I'm not a She Hulk expert driver: I have her, I use her, but I'm not an expert in judging how much of an overall difference the combo timing change has (and not just on one single fight). But I think if anything deserves rank down tickets, it might be this. It is not about how severe the change is, it is about how the change directly impacts a deliberate selling point about the champion when it was updated.
I think Gwenpool didn't justify rank down tickets. But I think the *reasons* why Gwenpool didn't justify rank down tickets actually strongly suggests that She Hulk might. Gwenpool doesn't tell players She Hulk is broken, Gwenpool tells players She Hulk was fine, and even Kabam isn't saying she's exploitive, she just breaks an internal design rule. Combine the fact that Gwenpool's discussion says She Hulk is fine, with the fact that players are unlikely to know about the design rule being broken, combined with the fact that the combo bug interacts strongly with the strong selling points of the She Hulk update (and especially her ability to chain slow debuffs which were a major selling point of the update), and I think this crosses the line of a change that justifies rank down tickets for a champion.
That's not something I say often.
That’s a lot of words.
And I pretty much agree with all of them.
One simple point I would add is this: it’s impossible for me to see how it is fair to put the burden on the players to know about the cadence and timing rules She-Hulk supposedly violated.
She operated this way for a long time. She had a beta and none of this mechanic was changed (in fact, it was amplified by the change and touted as a feature) or even mentioned as being OP. She’s been a content creator poster child for how to beat 6.2.6 Champion and that fact has even been noted by the mods on the forums.
In that light, what we should be talking about is how much restitution is enough to do right by the players, how to take responsibility for the programming change to She-Hulk and how to avoid issues like this again.
I think this is the most united I’ve ever seen the forums. I wish it was under much, much better circumstances obviously, but it’s nice to see nonetheless
So we need RDT for She Hulk and/or SS you can’t say it works one way and not the other Kabam...
I don't think SS deserves a rank down. Sure, the reasoning for that one issue is due to an apparent typo that was missed, but he was never shown to be able to do what was described anyway. So rewording to what he actually does isn't too bad if he never performed the description. I use SS a lot and it never bothered me much. That is just my opinion though. SH on the other hand deserves and RDT and normaly I avoid mentioning those
“he was never shown to be able to do what was described anyways”
If someone sells me a Mustang online and I get there and it’s a Ford Focus...not my fault they botched the spotlight and descriptions
I think this is the most united I’ve ever seen the forums. I wish it was under much, much better circumstances obviously, but it’s nice to see nonetheless
I noticed my comments have been deleted, so I will say it again.
I am no "tin-foil" hat person, but what Kabam has done with Sym Supreme and She-Hulk is, quite frankly, not showing any good signs for the upcoming future. They can do this with LITERALLY any champion and just say "We never identified this bug until now" or "This isn't the way we intended the champ to work" excuse and think they could get away with it.
They didn't do anything with SS. He never operated at 100%.
So the spotlight and the description say Symbiote Supreme should be at 100%...but he didn’t operate that way so they ”updated” the text.
She hulk had no description of her heavy attack, but it’s been the same for years...because that’s how she operated...not they are “updating” her mechanics.
Yet their “fix” both times manages to reduce champ effectiveness.
Nothing reduced with SS. He literally never functioned like that. They even discussed changing him to match that Description and realized it was too much. Shulk never indicated she was supposed to function that way. Same thing happened with Drax. There was another similar interaction that had to be addressed with GP. Champs aren't supposed to corner others like that.
I think you have your “cornering” confused—try chaining a heavy with Shulk on 6.2.6 Champion after he has a Sp1.
GwenPool was a broken mechanic that basically allowed for continuous heavy chaining. The two instances are quite different.
Dr. Zola
If there wasn't any effectiveness to the technique, we wouldn't be arguing it.
"Effectiveness" is not a reason for a nerf lol. Dr Zola said they were quite different, and he is correct. One was a broken mechanic, the other is not, whether or not it was intended.
Actually they're the same. If they're fixing it, it's a broken mechanic.
We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
Honestly, people should get more than an apology here, Miike.
This was a specific mechanic known throughout the community for a while and a significant attribute of the champ. You guys need to be more attuned to what is happening in game and make “fixes” like this out of the gate, not months later.
I dodged this bullet and used mine at R3 for 6.2 content. But anyone who used their hard-to-get materials on her should get them back and then some.
Dr. Zola
This was not a mechanic of this Champion, and was not mentioned as one. All Champions have the same speed and cadence to their Attacks, and no Champion should be able to combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability.
If that is true, shouldn't every champ be able to use a sp1 or sp2 after a combo? Why some of them can't?
And don't tell me you are not aware of this when you said you would change the old captain marvel sp2 because of that.
They all should be able to, and if they are not, that is a bug that should be reported. If you look back through the changelog, you'll see that we fix those issues when they arise. So if you see one that isn't consistently working, let us know!
How long Irom man and SIM are not able to use sp2 after mlllm 5 hit combo? A year? Two? Perhaps already 3.
I noticed my comments have been deleted, so I will say it again.
I am no "tin-foil" hat person, but what Kabam has done with Sym Supreme and She-Hulk is, quite frankly, not showing any good signs for the upcoming future. They can do this with LITERALLY any champion and just say "We never identified this bug until now" or "This isn't the way we intended the champ to work" excuse and think they could get away with it.
They didn't do anything with SS. He never operated at 100%.
So the spotlight and the description say Symbiote Supreme should be at 100%...but he didn’t operate that way so they ”updated” the text.
She hulk had no description of her heavy attack, but it’s been the same for years...because that’s how she operated...not they are “updating” her mechanics.
Yet their “fix” both times manages to reduce champ effectiveness.
Nothing reduced with SS. He literally never functioned like that. They even discussed changing him to match that Description and realized it was too much. Shulk never indicated she was supposed to function that way. Same thing happened with Drax. There was another similar interaction that had to be addressed with GP. Champs aren't supposed to corner others like that.
I think you have your “cornering” confused—try chaining a heavy with Shulk on 6.2.6 Champion after he has a Sp1.
GwenPool was a broken mechanic that basically allowed for continuous heavy chaining. The two instances are quite different.
Dr. Zola
If there wasn't any effectiveness to the technique, we wouldn't be arguing it.
"Effectiveness" is not a reason for a nerf lol. Dr Zola said they were quite different, and he is correct. One was a broken mechanic, the other is not, whether or not it was intended.
Actually they're the same. If they're fixing it, it's a broken mechanic.
I’d recommend the @DNA3000 post above which is pretty descriptive of the differences.
Those of us who have used SheHulk in 6.2.6 have a pretty good idea of how carefully you have to play the SheHulk heavies to avoid getting comboed into oblivion. It’s not even a close comparison to the GwenPool scenario.
One simple point I would add is this: it’s impossible for me to see how it is fair to put the burden on the players to know about the cadence and timing rules She-Hulk supposedly violated.
Even if the players aren't game designers, some cadence rules I think are obvious. For example, if a champion came along that didn't include the pause at the end of medium #2 or light attack #4 they could do infinite combos: just keep attacking with basic attacks and the defender couldn't ever respond. I think we all would know that was broken, even if we couldn't exactly articulate the design rule being violated.
This is different because this isn't obvious, and because the devs have made no serious attempt to inform the playerbase about this kind of thing. The cadence rule above seems obvious because it is obviously exploitive to allow. But combo into heavy doesn't seem obviously exploitive, so it is something only a designer would really think about. The average player shouldn't have to be a game designer to understand the game they are playing.
I understand what you are saying but the problem is the way they handle the bugs.
If anyone wants to complain that Kabam is horrible when it comes to communicating game intent, documenting in-game abilities and mechanics, bug tracking, or documenting bug fixes, they will get no argument from me.
I don't really blame the players for complaining about these kinds of changes. I'm simply stating that players are really complaining about the wrong thing. They are actually inadvertently directing their anger towards other players, when they should be directing it at the source of the problem: the poor communication and bug management processes in the game that range from poorly maintained to completely non-existent.
There's no good way to report bugs or anomalies. You can open a ticket. Ha ha, just kidding. And you can post on the forums. But the developers don't, and can't follow the forums continuously. And to the extent that they do, they don't always spot the right things and there's no way to follow up to see if anything is being worked on or even acknowledged. As far as I'm aware, it is no one's actual responsibility to track player-reported bugs specifically. For a game of this size and complexity, that's unacceptable.
I can agree with your statement. It’s so much that She-Hulk was bugged, it’s the fact that Kabam failed to tell us months ago. Not only that, but ability existed because of her animations & movements, something that is not found in an Ability Page. Furthermore, there are several encounters where movements can bypass certain things, like X-23’s heavy countering Mordo for example. So it’s plausible to believe this was working as intended. A simple message from Miike like...
”Hey guys! Just a heads up, She-Hulk is bugged at the moment. Her ability to chain Heavies isn’t intended, so don’t waste resources thinking this permanent. We were going to wait months to tell you this, but common sense told us that was a pretty dirty move, so now is fine 🙂”.
I noticed my comments have been deleted, so I will say it again.
I am no "tin-foil" hat person, but what Kabam has done with Sym Supreme and She-Hulk is, quite frankly, not showing any good signs for the upcoming future. They can do this with LITERALLY any champion and just say "We never identified this bug until now" or "This isn't the way we intended the champ to work" excuse and think they could get away with it.
They didn't do anything with SS. He never operated at 100%.
So the spotlight and the description say Symbiote Supreme should be at 100%...but he didn’t operate that way so they ”updated” the text.
She hulk had no description of her heavy attack, but it’s been the same for years...because that’s how she operated...not they are “updating” her mechanics.
Yet their “fix” both times manages to reduce champ effectiveness.
Nothing reduced with SS. He literally never functioned like that. They even discussed changing him to match that Description and realized it was too much. Shulk never indicated she was supposed to function that way. Same thing happened with Drax. There was another similar interaction that had to be addressed with GP. Champs aren't supposed to corner others like that.
I think you have your “cornering” confused—try chaining a heavy with Shulk on 6.2.6 Champion after he has a Sp1.
GwenPool was a broken mechanic that basically allowed for continuous heavy chaining. The two instances are quite different.
Dr. Zola
If there wasn't any effectiveness to the technique, we wouldn't be arguing it.
"Effectiveness" is not a reason for a nerf lol. Dr Zola said they were quite different, and he is correct. One was a broken mechanic, the other is not, whether or not it was intended.
Actually they're the same. If they're fixing it, it's a broken mechanic.
You don’t form a logical argument built upon solid premises. Please stop clogging up the discussion when you don’t answer consistently.
Well this is a shame really. My shehulk is only R3 and I wouldn't rank her down given the opportunity but I think RDTs should be issued. This change definitely changes how people use her and she's had this moveset forever. To me the biggest reason for RDTs is customer satisfaction. People are definitely loosing confidence in the game. We've had way to many "bug fixes" and "description changes". It needs to at least appear that Kabam wants to please it's customers.
@Kabam Miike@Kabam Zibiit@Kabam Vydious Have you guys been reading this? Any response? I think some good counter points have been raised, and your entire player base with the exception of basically two people don't like this. Wanna consider changing it?
I noticed my comments have been deleted, so I will say it again.
I am no "tin-foil" hat person, but what Kabam has done with Sym Supreme and She-Hulk is, quite frankly, not showing any good signs for the upcoming future. They can do this with LITERALLY any champion and just say "We never identified this bug until now" or "This isn't the way we intended the champ to work" excuse and think they could get away with it.
They didn't do anything with SS. He never operated at 100%.
So the spotlight and the description say Symbiote Supreme should be at 100%...but he didn’t operate that way so they ”updated” the text.
She hulk had no description of her heavy attack, but it’s been the same for years...because that’s how she operated...not they are “updating” her mechanics.
Yet their “fix” both times manages to reduce champ effectiveness.
Nothing reduced with SS. He literally never functioned like that. They even discussed changing him to match that Description and realized it was too much. Shulk never indicated she was supposed to function that way. Same thing happened with Drax. There was another similar interaction that had to be addressed with GP. Champs aren't supposed to corner others like that.
I think you have your “cornering” confused—try chaining a heavy with Shulk on 6.2.6 Champion after he has a Sp1.
GwenPool was a broken mechanic that basically allowed for continuous heavy chaining. The two instances are quite different.
Dr. Zola
If there wasn't any effectiveness to the technique, we wouldn't be arguing it.
"Effectiveness" is not a reason for a nerf lol. Dr Zola said they were quite different, and he is correct. One was a broken mechanic, the other is not, whether or not it was intended.
Actually they're the same. If they're fixing it, it's a broken mechanic.
You don’t form a logical argument built upon solid premises. Please stop clogging up the discussion when you don’t answer consistently.
This guy always does. Thanks to someone above I found out you can go to his profile and ignore him. Still see his avatar when he posts something, but can't read all the nonsense he's writing. Just ignore it
I noticed my comments have been deleted, so I will say it again.
I am no "tin-foil" hat person, but what Kabam has done with Sym Supreme and She-Hulk is, quite frankly, not showing any good signs for the upcoming future. They can do this with LITERALLY any champion and just say "We never identified this bug until now" or "This isn't the way we intended the champ to work" excuse and think they could get away with it.
They didn't do anything with SS. He never operated at 100%.
So the spotlight and the description say Symbiote Supreme should be at 100%...but he didn’t operate that way so they ”updated” the text.
She hulk had no description of her heavy attack, but it’s been the same for years...because that’s how she operated...not they are “updating” her mechanics.
Yet their “fix” both times manages to reduce champ effectiveness.
Nothing reduced with SS. He literally never functioned like that. They even discussed changing him to match that Description and realized it was too much. Shulk never indicated she was supposed to function that way. Same thing happened with Drax. There was another similar interaction that had to be addressed with GP. Champs aren't supposed to corner others like that.
I think you have your “cornering” confused—try chaining a heavy with Shulk on 6.2.6 Champion after he has a Sp1.
GwenPool was a broken mechanic that basically allowed for continuous heavy chaining. The two instances are quite different.
Dr. Zola
If there wasn't any effectiveness to the technique, we wouldn't be arguing it.
"Effectiveness" is not a reason for a nerf lol. Dr Zola said they were quite different, and he is correct. One was a broken mechanic, the other is not, whether or not it was intended.
Actually they're the same. If they're fixing it, it's a broken mechanic.
You don’t form a logical argument built upon solid premises. Please stop clogging up the discussion when you don’t answer consistently.
This guy always does. Thanks to someone above I found out you can go to his profile and ignore him. Still see his avatar when he posts something, but can't read all the nonsense he's writing. Just ignore it
This thread will literally go on forever. RDTs are a last resort. I hate em. I don't have anything higher than a 3 star she hulk. Ppl deserve RDTs here. Pretty simple.
One simple point I would add is this: it’s impossible for me to see how it is fair to put the burden on the players to know about the cadence and timing rules She-Hulk supposedly violated.
Even if the players aren't game designers, some cadence rules I think are obvious. For example, if a champion came along that didn't include the pause at the end of medium #2 or light attack #4 they could do infinite combos: just keep attacking with basic attacks and the defender couldn't ever respond. I think we all would know that was broken, even if we couldn't exactly articulate the design rule being violated.
This is different because this isn't obvious, and because the devs have made no serious attempt to inform the playerbase about this kind of thing. The cadence rule above seems obvious because it is obviously exploitive to allow. But combo into heavy doesn't seem obviously exploitive, so it is something only a designer would really think about. The average player shouldn't have to be a game designer to understand the game they are playing.
Totally agree, and that’s the issue. In addition to not being obvious, this was long-standing, was highlighted as a feature, was allowed to continue through a beta, was spotlighted in a Content Creator bio...
I would also add that the SheHulk buff came along with Spider-Gwen’s buff, and both champions seemed to be tweaked specifically to be able to deal with some of the pervasive unstoppable effects in high end content.
Reliance on her heavy mechanics remaining the same would be a totally reasonable position in my opinion.
We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
OML also combos his hits into heavy with 100% reliability. This is a bug that needs to be fixed i
@MasChingon If it happens to sh, I'm afraid he will be nerfed as well, so I won't take mine to r5. It's really strange to see with how much they both benefit from heavy and nodes like heavy aegis, where you can only use wasp reliably vs Mordo for example. Like aw node forcing you to bring the only one specific champ of what, 150 now? Loool
Comments
And I pretty much agree with all of them.
One simple point I would add is this: it’s impossible for me to see how it is fair to put the burden on the players to know about the cadence and timing rules She-Hulk supposedly violated.
She operated this way for a long time. She had a beta and none of this mechanic was changed (in fact, it was amplified by the change and touted as a feature) or even mentioned as being OP. She’s been a content creator poster child for how to beat 6.2.6 Champion and that fact has even been noted by the mods on the forums.
In that light, what we should be talking about is how much restitution is enough to do right by the players, how to take responsibility for the programming change to She-Hulk and how to avoid issues like this again.
Dr. Zola
“he was never shown to be able to do what was described anyways”
If someone sells me a Mustang online and I get there and it’s a Ford Focus...not my fault they botched the spotlight and descriptions
How long Irom man and SIM are not able to use sp2 after mlllm 5 hit combo? A year? Two? Perhaps already 3.
Those of us who have used SheHulk in 6.2.6 have a pretty good idea of how carefully you have to play the SheHulk heavies to avoid getting comboed into oblivion. It’s not even a close comparison to the GwenPool scenario.
Dr. Zola
This is different because this isn't obvious, and because the devs have made no serious attempt to inform the playerbase about this kind of thing. The cadence rule above seems obvious because it is obviously exploitive to allow. But combo into heavy doesn't seem obviously exploitive, so it is something only a designer would really think about. The average player shouldn't have to be a game designer to understand the game they are playing.
Thanks to someone above I found out you can go to his profile and ignore him. Still see his avatar when he posts something, but can't read all the nonsense he's writing. Just ignore it
I would also add that the SheHulk buff came along with Spider-Gwen’s buff, and both champions seemed to be tweaked specifically to be able to deal with some of the pervasive unstoppable effects in high end content.
Reliance on her heavy mechanics remaining the same would be a totally reasonable position in my opinion.
Dr. Zola
If it happens to sh, I'm afraid he will be nerfed as well, so I won't take mine to r5. It's really strange to see with how much they both benefit from heavy and nodes like heavy aegis, where you can only use wasp reliably vs Mordo for example. Like aw node forcing you to bring the only one specific champ of what, 150 now? Loool