She-Hulk Heavy Speed Bug Fix [Title Edited for Clarity]

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  • edited August 2019
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  • GinjabredMonstaGinjabredMonsta Member, Guardian Posts: 6,482 Guardian

    kabam sure knows how to get the community all wild up but guess what at the end of the day everyone will get over it and spend on the next champ just to get the “wasn’t working as intended” , as I always say only way to get ya voice heard is with ya pocket if you keep spending for this kind of service that’s what you will get.

    I get what you're saying, but not everyone spent on this champ and some people had to grind to rank her and get a lucky crystal pull
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,639 Guardian
    DrZola said:

    I would also add that the SheHulk buff came along with Spider-Gwen’s buff, and both champions seemed to be tweaked specifically to be able to deal with some of the pervasive unstoppable effects in high end content.

    Just a supporting data point: I was in the beta for both champs, and part of the beta included a survey for the beta participants in which one of the questions was explicitly (and I'm paraphrasing from memory here) "how likely would you be to use this champion's heavy attacks to counter unstoppable champions?" This was explicitly called out as a primary feature of the champion improvements.
  • DrZolaDrZola Member Posts: 9,097 ★★★★★
    Aleor said:

    @MasChingon
    If it happens to sh, I'm afraid he will be nerfed as well, so I won't take mine to r5. It's really strange to see with how much they both benefit from heavy and nodes like heavy aegis, where you can only use wasp reliably vs Mordo for example. Like aw node forcing you to bring the only one specific champ of what, 150 now? Loool

    This raises a good point—namely, that much of this She-Hulk debacle is a result of game design that tends to require specific counters to a host of different nodes.

    For those of us who don’t luck out and land one of the handful of champs who are great on nearly all nodes (Ghost, Corvus, Cap), we wind up ranking up subsets of champs to deal with specific fights/nodes.

    This makes it even more important to be able to rely on the descriptions of mechanics and the mechanics themselves as accurate. If they aren’t, then you wind up burning precious resources (real and virtual) on a counter who is no longer a counter.

    Dr. Zola
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  • DrZolaDrZola Member Posts: 9,097 ★★★★★
    edited August 2019
    @DNA3000 Again, agreed. Only thing I would add is a give back on anyone who awakened their She-Hulk via gem since the update (along with corresponding stones).

    Also appreciate your memory of the survey question. Yet another data point that supports relief.

    Dr. Zola
  • GinjabredMonstaGinjabredMonsta Member, Guardian Posts: 6,482 Guardian
    Cain said:

    Cain said:

    So we need RDT for She Hulk and/or SS you can’t say it works one way and not the other Kabam...

    I don't think SS deserves a rank down. Sure, the reasoning for that one issue is due to an apparent typo that was missed, but he was never shown to be able to do what was described anyway. So rewording to what he actually does isn't too bad if he never performed the description. I use SS a lot and it never bothered me much. That is just my opinion though. SH on the other hand deserves and RDT and normaly I avoid mentioning those

    “he was never shown to be able to do what was described anyways”

    If someone sells me a Mustang online and I get there and it’s a Ford Focus...not my fault they botched the spotlight and descriptions
    Like I said, I get what you're saying which is why I made the comment about the apparent typo. They spotlighted that and the "typo" has always been there. I don't agree on that being the reason but the reason I don't see it being RDT needing is because from release or at least a month after (when I pulled him) I have never seen a 100% stagger from perfect blocks while in that stance. I use him a lot and haven't seen that being a huge detriment to using him effectively. Like I said, that is my opinion but I know that their decision on that really bugs you.
  • LibertyPrimeV1LibertyPrimeV1 Member Posts: 4,179 ★★★★★
    TL;DR, it's unfair that we (the community) can get screwed over by your (Kabam's) understandable short comings. (Read that rest for the details and where I'm coming from, Without assuming I'm someone who "just wants free stuff" and/or "is just jumping on the Rant Train"...)

    I completely get everyone makes mistakes and these Interactions/Bugs can be missed, but in a game that's Ever Evolving with New Incorrect Interactions between Champions (example back when Drax was revealed to be able to bypass Mordu's Astral-Evade) and even Old Big Oversights (example She-Hulk's speedy Heavy Attack) there should be a way for people (the community) to Reverse their Choices when it's Fair and Not Their Fault. (Not saying those examples should or shouldn't deserve the option to Reverse your Previous Choice, they're just examples of Unintended Interactions and Mechanics.)
    No I am Not saying give every Player the "you know whats" with free reign on who they can use "it" on, I mean give people who invested into these specific cases the option to change Only That Decision when it's something that was caused by an error on your (Kabam's) part. If these Champions were set in stone upon released being Fully Tested with no problems whatsoever then it'd make sense for these Decisions to be Permanent with no turning back, but since this is a Constantly Growing and Changing Game (basically in a perpetual Beta compared to other games with a set system and no new editions) that's not the case and I just don't see it as Fair that we (the community) can be stuck with these irreversible choices that couldn't possibly take into account these constant changes that may completely alter certain Mechanics at any point in time because of oversights on the Creators end (again it's completely understand and everyone makes mistakes).

    Please don't instantly silence me or mindlessly rant at me for expressing my opinion and for implying the "Item That Shall Not Be Named", I'm talking to the Admins And Players here, I would just like you to thoroughly read my thoughts/opinions that I'm Fairly Expressing and think about it from several points of view. (From the view points of the Players that know the ins and outs of the game, the Audiences that play other games and that are looking into this game with blind eyes, the Admins/Bug Fixers that watch over these cases and work together to come to these decisions that can make or break certain previous choices, the Creators who made these Mechanics and missed something big or small due to understandable simple human error, from a Financial standpoint where while "this item" that is a fix for these unforeseen changes/fixes may be free to implement that they can trickle down into profits when things like purchasing Champion Crystals and more so Rank Up Materials that go up for sale that you may no longer need to buy because of the returned Materials for the previous Fair Error that any Creator should own up to, and people like me who are just trying to think how these things can be handled Fairly for everyone and just want to Suggest something that can make Everyone Happy without "offending" Anyone.)

    Thank you reading, I know it's a Big Post with a Lot of side explanations/conversations but I try to be thorough and make sure no one gets confused by any part of the Post.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,639 Guardian
    DrZola said:

    This makes it even more important to be able to rely on the descriptions of mechanics and the mechanics themselves as accurate. If they aren’t, then you wind up burning precious resources (real and virtual) on a counter who is no longer a counter.

    This is a bit off-topic, but I believe this underscores a root problem with the developers that they envision a game based on both discovery (which requires things to be hidden) and counterplay (which requires things to be visible and described). That's why you have crazy situations like the devs trying to encourage bringing specific counters into alliance war, and then hiding all the nodes. That's a committee failing to agree on a design and trying to do both and getting neither.

    Intricate counterplay requires the game be extremely transparent and well documented, and for the developers to tell the players what the rules are and then follow them, right off the edge of a cliff if necessary, to maintain design fidelity. I don't think this is compatible with the way the devs currently withhold complete descriptions of game mechanics and design rules.
  • DaileyDailey Member Posts: 283 ★★
    Ilacskills is the only youtuber worth while now....others open crystals...whippitty doo dah boring !
  • GinjabredMonstaGinjabredMonsta Member, Guardian Posts: 6,482 Guardian

    As usual, factually incorrect on multiple points.

    How so?
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  • GinjabredMonstaGinjabredMonsta Member, Guardian Posts: 6,482 Guardian
    @KerayZ that's dedication
  • ItsDamienItsDamien Member Posts: 5,626 ★★★★★
    The thing I don't agree with the most in that video - stating that people knew it was cheese, this information at the top end of the game gets spread around all the big line groups with the top players (which has been confirmed a few times that these groups exist), then complaining and wanting rank down tickets for something you knew was cheese. IF it was intended for She-Hulk to be able to chain her heavy that way from a combo, much like Wasp can and is a part of her ACTUAL kit, then yes I'd understand the outrage. But from my understanding SH was not meant to have the ability to chain her heavy in that way, it was unintended. The reason it takes a while for this to become an issue for Kabam is they have to observe how many people are abusing a mechanic, if it's a small group of people and its relatively unknown, then they'll take their time with it, but if they see a big increase in that issue then they'll slam the hammer down hard and fast. Honestly this is another case of "The people who knew about this, should have kept it to themselves".
  • GinjabredMonstaGinjabredMonsta Member, Guardian Posts: 6,482 Guardian
    KerayZ said:

    @KerayZ that's dedication

    Seriously i could say the sky is blue and he would argue it since its just a reflection of the ocean.

    I didnt ask for my video to be posted here so i really appreciate it though and the kind words.
    Oh snap that's you? Well props man!
  • KerayZKerayZ Member Posts: 220 ★★★
    ItsDamien said:

    The thing I don't agree with the most in that video - stating that people knew it was cheese, this information at the top end of the game gets spread around all the big line groups with the top players (which has been confirmed a few times that these groups exist), then complaining and wanting rank down tickets for something you knew was cheese. IF it was intended for She-Hulk to be able to chain her heavy that way from a combo, much like Wasp can and is a part of her ACTUAL kit, then yes I'd understand the outrage. But from my understanding SH was not meant to have the ability to chain her heavy in that way, it was unintended. The reason it takes a while for this to become an issue for Kabam is they have to observe how many people are abusing a mechanic, if it's a small group of people and its relatively unknown, then they'll take their time with it, but if they see a big increase in that issue then they'll slam the hammer down hard and fast. Honestly this is another case of "The people who knew about this, should have kept it to themselves".

    It was posted on youtube as "She-Hulk Cheese" by one of the top players in the game. Who is in all those groups. Thousands of people seen it and it was even a copy of a video already made the month before. If you used her at end game and didnt feel you were cheesing the contest....i call BS on that.
  • Dtl7714Dtl7714 Member Posts: 473 ★★★

    Hey everybody,

    We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.

    This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.

    We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.

    OML also combos his hits into heavy with 100% reliability. This is a bug that needs to be fixed i
    You know they will wait till people invest in rank up materials and people post videos of his great uses, then they will nerf him. Oh sorry, I mean fix him.
  • DrZolaDrZola Member Posts: 9,097 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DrZola said:

    This makes it even more important to be able to rely on the descriptions of mechanics and the mechanics themselves as accurate. If they aren’t, then you wind up burning precious resources (real and virtual) on a counter who is no longer a counter.

    This is a bit off-topic, but I believe this underscores a root problem with the developers that they envision a game based on both discovery (which requires things to be hidden) and counterplay (which requires things to be visible and described). That's why you have crazy situations like the devs trying to encourage bringing specific counters into alliance war, and then hiding all the nodes. That's a committee failing to agree on a design and trying to do both and getting neither.

    Intricate counterplay requires the game be extremely transparent and well documented, and for the developers to tell the players what the rules are and then follow them, right off the edge of a cliff if necessary, to maintain design fidelity. I don't think this is compatible with the way the devs currently withhold complete descriptions of game mechanics and design rules.
    Again, having our own little dialogue here, but yes—absolutely.

    Dr. Zola
This discussion has been closed.