Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

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Comments

  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,361 ★★★★★
    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    mufix said:

    Lormif said:

    I disagree, because I see the game being balanced as more important than individual champions. With this change I know that if I buy a champion that champion will not necessarily be made useless by newer champions.

    But if you spend +-$100 (or hard earned units) for that champion, rank him up, use awakening gem and sig stones and than after 3 months they nerf him, how would you feel? You will be glad that the game is balanced and more important than that champion?
    It has happened to me multiple times, domino, SS, and others. I feel fine, I dont overreact, and in those cases I understood their concerns, just like here. I dont want my champions to get to the point where they cause others to either have them or be unable to do content because they are lacking the champ.
    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    I think the issue is not about cull, it is about the way kabam doing this business. Now kabam delivered a message to all the players that don’t spend any money to buy new champions because you don’t know what you are buying. Of course kabam can change everything because they already put in terms and conditions, but this kind of stupid change will destroy the paid players, no one wants to spend money to this game, is this kabam want?

    I disagree, because I see the game being balanced as more important than individual champions. With this change I know that if I buy a champion that champion will not necessarily be made useless by newer champions.
    If they want to balance a champ that they think is "OP" (which cull is not) then do it within the first week of the champion being released. There is no excuse for them to wait this long.
    In order to do that they have to know within a week that he is OK, and yes there are plenty of reasons to wait this long.
    You're telling me that majority of the community is aware of culls damage within the first week with all videos and talk about him but kabam is soo out of touch with their community that they aren't aware of it?
    Lol.....they are just waiting for people spend money. That's the only reason there is. Greed.
    So you expect them to have the same knee jerk response that you do? I would rather them have a logical response to gather all data and go from there, which from what they are saying is what they did.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,361 ★★★★★

    Lormif said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    I think the issue is not about cull, it is about the way kabam doing this business. Now kabam delivered a message to all the players that don’t spend any money to buy new champions because you don’t know what you are buying. Of course kabam can change everything because they already put in terms and conditions, but this kind of stupid change will destroy the paid players, no one wants to spend money to this game, is this kabam want?

    I disagree, because I see the game being balanced as more important than individual champions. With this change I know that if I buy a champion that champion will not necessarily be made useless by newer champions.
    Cull does not unbalance the game for anyone except Kabam and their ability to do damage to the player on solo content. You hardly ever see Cull on AW defense... He is too easy too evade and will not have any ramp up. He shines in AW Offense, but the player does need to spend on pots the first couple fights sometimes. In later fights, he can clear nodes easier, but you still need a skilled player behind the Cull to done mini-bosses and bosses in AQ.

    The only unbalance is versus Kabam's EQ material. That is not truly unbalanced, and the fact they have to figure ways to work around Cull is evidence that they should have tested Champs a lot more before releasing them. THese champions are not made in a month, they are planned several months in advance. That is why we get a wallpaper of the State of the Battlerealm with question marks at the beginning of the year. They know who the champions will be and start mapping out their skills and abilities long before they are released. Not to mention the CCP also helps them acquire data long before the Champ's official release. They need to be more proactive early in the release and not after a champs release and people wasted time and money to acquire them. if anything, it is unbalanced to the players that worked hard towards acquiring something.
    except that is, because that is how they keep the game going. Not AW, AW you can manage all your resources with glory, which is easy to obtain. There is no reason to need to buy anything for AW in general, or atleast not much. If a champ makes it so you can, with little skill, buypass content then it unbalances the game, because then they have to balance around that champion, to make him weaker vs that content, this has the effect to make other champs who are worse then him even more difficult to clear said content and creates haves and have nots, which is more devastating for the game.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,361 ★★★★★
    mufix said:

    Lormif said:

    It has happened to me multiple times, domino, SS, and others. I feel fine, I dont overreact, and in those cases I understood their concerns, just like here. I dont want my champions to get to the point where they cause others to either have them or be unable to do content because they are lacking the champ.

    It's not about clearing content, it's about spending money/units and rankup materials for something that MIGHT stay as advertised. It's not overreaction, it's about my hard earned materials (units, gold, iso, awakening gems, sig gems, rank up gems...). We don't want to wait 3 months before I rank up a new character.

    And even if we decide to wait 3 months, how will they know if the champions needs rebalancing if nobody will rankup and use them?

    It is about proper testing before release. That is all.

    Also, as far as I remember Domino was never nerfed. But that is a different subject :)
    It is an overreaction because you do not even know what the changes will be, he may still be the best damage dealer, he may get better utility in exchange, but it about clearing content from a game balance perspective.

    this is not about proper testing, again there is no amount of testing that can ensure this will not happen. You can look at any mmo that places emphasis on balance, you will always see these types of changes.

    Domino was bugged at release, she was supposed to do multiple times bleed on an sp2. In stead of fixing that they nerfed her abilities to meet what she could do.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,361 ★★★★★
    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    mufix said:

    Lormif said:

    I disagree, because I see the game being balanced as more important than individual champions. With this change I know that if I buy a champion that champion will not necessarily be made useless by newer champions.

    But if you spend +-$100 (or hard earned units) for that champion, rank him up, use awakening gem and sig stones and than after 3 months they nerf him, how would you feel? You will be glad that the game is balanced and more important than that champion?
    It has happened to me multiple times, domino, SS, and others. I feel fine, I dont overreact, and in those cases I understood their concerns, just like here. I dont want my champions to get to the point where they cause others to either have them or be unable to do content because they are lacking the champ.
    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    I think the issue is not about cull, it is about the way kabam doing this business. Now kabam delivered a message to all the players that don’t spend any money to buy new champions because you don’t know what you are buying. Of course kabam can change everything because they already put in terms and conditions, but this kind of stupid change will destroy the paid players, no one wants to spend money to this game, is this kabam want?

    I disagree, because I see the game being balanced as more important than individual champions. With this change I know that if I buy a champion that champion will not necessarily be made useless by newer champions.
    If they want to balance a champ that they think is "OP" (which cull is not) then do it within the first week of the champion being released. There is no excuse for them to wait this long.
    In order to do that they have to know within a week that he is OK, and yes there are plenty of reasons to wait this long.
    You're telling me that majority of the community is aware of culls damage within the first week with all videos and talk about him but kabam is soo out of touch with their community that they aren't aware of it?
    Lol.....they are just waiting for people spend money. That's the only reason there is. Greed.
    So you expect them to have the same knee jerk response that you do? I would rather them have a logical response to gather all data and go from there, which from what they are saying is what they did.
    Huh! I guess it's better to not tell their player base anything till they are done spending their hard earned money.
    It's not a knee jerk reaction if they let their community know that cull is doing more damage than he is supposed to do and that they might change that.

    It's not like cull has a bug or something where is outputs crazy damage against specific fights. They were aware of their damage even before they released him. THAT WAS HIS MAIN ABILITY.
    They knew how much damage he was doing from start. If that was unacceptable to their pockets then put out a statement right away.
    That's what every decent game company does.
    No true scottsman fallacy.And no that is not what every "decent" company does. Companies who need to keep their game balanced general nerf and buff as needed. his main ability is damage, but that does not mean the damage has to be so obscene.
  • TacoScottyTacoScotty Posts: 407 ★★
    So if Cull now, is Ghost next? Ghost has crazy utility and damage haha. Cull needs to ramp up to get his damage and lacks immunities etc
  • DJMicaiahDJMicaiah Posts: 2
    So will cash be refunded for those who spent money on this character?????
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,361 ★★★★★
    dot_ditto said:

    Lormif said:

    I feel like reading some of these comments is lowering my IQ. Let's keep it constructive if you dont have the champ in question then I dont see much use in you posting on this thread.

    Why? You do not have to have a champ to be able to use logic and reason. Appeal to authority fallacy and such.
    If you don't have the champion, you have no investment in the discussion ..
    Very simple logical reasoning there.
    Please stop trying to derail the thread.
    That is actually very poor logical reasoning. I have an investment int he discussion because cause I have a vested interest int he balance of the game. You are the one trying to derail the thread by telling people they have no rights to comment.
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,448 ★★★★
    Lormif said:

    mufix said:

    Lormif said:

    It has happened to me multiple times, domino, SS, and others. I feel fine, I dont overreact, and in those cases I understood their concerns, just like here. I dont want my champions to get to the point where they cause others to either have them or be unable to do content because they are lacking the champ.

    It's not about clearing content, it's about spending money/units and rankup materials for something that MIGHT stay as advertised. It's not overreaction, it's about my hard earned materials (units, gold, iso, awakening gems, sig gems, rank up gems...). We don't want to wait 3 months before I rank up a new character.

    And even if we decide to wait 3 months, how will they know if the champions needs rebalancing if nobody will rankup and use them?

    It is about proper testing before release. That is all.

    Also, as far as I remember Domino was never nerfed. But that is a different subject :)
    It is an overreaction because you do not even know what the changes will be, he may still be the best damage dealer, he may get better utility in exchange, but it about clearing content from a game balance perspective.

    this is not about proper testing, again there is no amount of testing that can ensure this will not happen. You can look at any mmo that places emphasis on balance, you will always see these types of changes.

    Domino was bugged at release, she was supposed to do multiple times bleed on an sp2. In stead of fixing that they nerfed her abilities to meet what she could do.
    No one seriously thinks testing will result in perfect champs that will never need to be looked at again, no matter what. Proper testing would have shown right away that his damage was a little too high for their liking*. They made the champ and the content the champ would be in. They didn't think a massive armor break that's stupid easy to apply a zillion of and can last a long time would result in this? Who couldn't have figured that out immediately? Testing won't eliminate every problem, but it would help avoid these situations where Kabam appears clueless about their product and their customers.

    *I assume Kabam has some sort of guide to eliminate guesswork in champ tuning. If they don't, that's even more ridiculous. They should be able to tell with reasonable accuracy what the output of a champ should be based on their knowledge of the system. Outside of glitches of course. They should be able to immediately calculate the assumed difference between a 1400 armor break and a 1500 and what could happen. Then the testing comes in to see if that's the case or not. They should have minimal surprises.
  • DJSergyDJSergy Posts: 170 ★★
    Lormif said:

    mufix said:

    Lormif said:

    It has happened to me multiple times, domino, SS, and others. I feel fine, I dont overreact, and in those cases I understood their concerns, just like here. I dont want my champions to get to the point where they cause others to either have them or be unable to do content because they are lacking the champ.

    It's not about clearing content, it's about spending money/units and rankup materials for something that MIGHT stay as advertised. It's not overreaction, it's about my hard earned materials (units, gold, iso, awakening gems, sig gems, rank up gems...). We don't want to wait 3 months before I rank up a new character.

    And even if we decide to wait 3 months, how will they know if the champions needs rebalancing if nobody will rankup and use them?

    It is about proper testing before release. That is all.

    Also, as far as I remember Domino was never nerfed. But that is a different subject :)
    It is an overreaction because you do not even know what the changes will be, he may still be the best damage dealer, he may get better utility in exchange, but it about clearing content from a game balance perspective.

    this is not about proper testing, again there is no amount of testing that can ensure this will not happen. You can look at any mmo that places emphasis on balance, you will always see these types of changes.

    Domino was bugged at release, she was supposed to do multiple times bleed on an sp2. In stead of fixing that they nerfed her abilities to meet what she could do.
    How can you say no amount of testing couldn’t prevent this????

    This Cull example is perfect to show that proper testing CAN PREVENT THIS. How come kabam didn’t know the damage capability of a champion the moment they release the champ? Basic testing includes using different mastery setups e.g suicides , using him at max charges, and boosts. Then have a skilled player use him to clear end game content. Is he clearing end game content really fast and easy? Then nerf his attack BEFORE the release. This is not an obscure bug that was discovered on Cull or some kind of synergy they weren’t aware. This is BASIC attack and damage capability of a champ, and it is unacceptable after they release it they say “shoot, it is making more damage than intended” when damage is the single most important stat that should be tested
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,361 ★★★★★
    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    mufix said:

    Lormif said:

    I disagree, because I see the game being balanced as more important than individual champions. With this change I know that if I buy a champion that champion will not necessarily be made useless by newer champions.

    But if you spend +-$100 (or hard earned units) for that champion, rank him up, use awakening gem and sig stones and than after 3 months they nerf him, how would you feel? You will be glad that the game is balanced and more important than that champion?
    It has happened to me multiple times, domino, SS, and others. I feel fine, I dont overreact, and in those cases I understood their concerns, just like here. I dont want my champions to get to the point where they cause others to either have them or be unable to do content because they are lacking the champ.
    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    I think the issue is not about cull, it is about the way kabam doing this business. Now kabam delivered a message to all the players that don’t spend any money to buy new champions because you don’t know what you are buying. Of course kabam can change everything because they already put in terms and conditions, but this kind of stupid change will destroy the paid players, no one wants to spend money to this game, is this kabam want?

    I disagree, because I see the game being balanced as more important than individual champions. With this change I know that if I buy a champion that champion will not necessarily be made useless by newer champions.
    If they want to balance a champ that they think is "OP" (which cull is not) then do it within the first week of the champion being released. There is no excuse for them to wait this long.
    In order to do that they have to know within a week that he is OK, and yes there are plenty of reasons to wait this long.
    You're telling me that majority of the community is aware of culls damage within the first week with all videos and talk about him but kabam is soo out of touch with their community that they aren't aware of it?
    Lol.....they are just waiting for people spend money. That's the only reason there is. Greed.
    So you expect them to have the same knee jerk response that you do? I would rather them have a logical response to gather all data and go from there, which from what they are saying is what they did.
    Huh! I guess it's better to not tell their player base anything till they are done spending their hard earned money.
    It's not a knee jerk reaction if they let their community know that cull is doing more damage than he is supposed to do and that they might change that.

    It's not like cull has a bug or something where is outputs crazy damage against specific fights. They were aware of their damage even before they released him. THAT WAS HIS MAIN ABILITY.
    They knew how much damage he was doing from start. If that was unacceptable to their pockets then put out a statement right away.
    That's what every decent game company does.
    No true scottsman fallacy.And no that is not what every "decent" company does. Companies who need to keep their game balanced general nerf and buff as needed. his main ability is damage, but that does not mean the damage has to be so obscene.
    Okay lets try this again. If cull's damage was obscene then why not address it in the first week.
    It's not like he is broken. He has been doing the same amount of damage since day one.
    Are you seriously saying that kabam just realized that his damage is too much.
    Ok, lets trying this again. You can know the damgage is large, but you need to get how that interacts on a vast number of fights to see how bad it is, something you cannot do in testing, or the first week. Pure statistics speaks louder then just base observations. It could have been that he ran into issues with interactions they did not account for, and was therefore more limited then watching people run over ROL.
  • dot_dittodot_ditto Posts: 1,266 ★★★
    Lormif said:


    That is actually very poor logical reasoning. .

    No it's pretty straight forward, however, when it doesn't suit your purpose, you get upset ..
    LOL
    You keep making claims, but supporting none of them ... (as does others ..)
    Still waiting for anyone to back anything up with any substantial data ..
    *shrug*
    until then you're just shouting nonsense trying to derail things ..
    ;)
  • ButtehrsButtehrs Posts: 2,097 ★★★★★
    dot_ditto said:

    Lormif said:

    I feel like reading some of these comments is lowering my IQ. Let's keep it constructive if you dont have the champ in question then I dont see much use in you posting on this thread.

    Why? You do not have to have a champ to be able to use logic and reason. Appeal to authority fallacy and such.
    If you don't have the champion, you have no investment in the discussion ..
    Very simple logical reasoning there.
    Please stop trying to derail the thread.
    Ok and? We have other champs besides cull who could get nerfed for simply being too powerful as well because kabam hates to lose money on potions and units.
  • Harry_hzyHarry_hzy Posts: 22
    Lormif said:

    mufix said:

    Lormif said:

    It has happened to me multiple times, domino, SS, and others. I feel fine, I dont overreact, and in those cases I understood their concerns, just like here. I dont want my champions to get to the point where they cause others to either have them or be unable to do content because they are lacking the champ.

    It's not about clearing content, it's about spending money/units and rankup materials for something that MIGHT stay as advertised. It's not overreaction, it's about my hard earned materials (units, gold, iso, awakening gems, sig gems, rank up gems...). We don't want to wait 3 months before I rank up a new character.

    And even if we decide to wait 3 months, how will they know if the champions needs rebalancing if nobody will rankup and use them?

    It is about proper testing before release. That is all.

    Also, as far as I remember Domino was never nerfed. But that is a different subject :)
    It is an overreaction because you do not even know what the changes will be, he may still be the best damage dealer, he may get better utility in exchange, but it about clearing content from a game balance perspective.

    this is not about proper testing, again there is no amount of testing that can ensure this will not happen. You can look at any mmo that places emphasis on balance, you will always see these types of changes.

    Domino was bugged at release, she was supposed to do multiple times bleed on an sp2. In stead of fixing that they nerfed her abilities to meet what she could do.

    You and us are discussing totally different thing. Of course we understand the game balance is important. Now the issue is kabam make player think the new champion is very good, so players spent lots of money to get it, and spent lots of money and materials to rank him up, then Kabam said we think he is too good, we decide to make him worse. Is this kind of misleading? When you make an offer, you cannot change it after the people already accept it. Kabam can make the worse champions better, it is a good way to rebalance the game.
  • YouconfusedYouconfused Posts: 268
    @Kabam Miike can you allow the community to have input on this? As someone who recently ranked up a cull, this is disheartening. I used shards to go feature and grab him and that was for his damage output. I don’t normally do feature crystals because I understand the dynamics of duping 5*, and the greater outcome of rewards from basics. I’m sure there are people who spent thousands of dollars to thousands to grab a cull. We need some form of stability or champion testing more so this “rebalancing” won’t have to become the norm. Think about those who grind arena or skip arena based on champion damage/utility, just to find out the champion you grinder for or skipped is being changed. This isn’t fair to the MCOC because we deserve stability.
  • SupaflyaznSupaflyazn Posts: 70
    edited September 2019
    cdubby_22 said:

    I wasted an Awakening Gem on this champion only because of his damage. After spending on crystals as a ton of other people have posted. Do you know how rare those things are, how is this justified????????

    I spent my cosmic AG as well on him, and resources to R4 him. Knowing this, I would have just used my Awakening Gem on Corvus, who I ironically pulled later after Cull. Kabam is becoming a joke of a company, talk about an EA (Electronic Arts) type feeling here... who knows they might end up supplanting them for worst company.

    So here’s my take. @Kabam Miike @Kabam Zibiit @Kabam Vydious @Kabam Lyra @Kabam Porthos How is this not a bait and switch tactic where you sell one thing and switch it after it is purchased to a lesser desired product?

    There should be some regulation preventing you from nerfing to the ground any desired champ after selling “said champ” in featured cavalier and making us spend more resources to 1) obtain the featured champ 2) to rank up the featured champ. There has to be some give and take here... it can’t all be one-sided. I agree with others that if you need one ability, balance Cull or any champ in the future on what they are weak at. Cull, for instance, needs more utility. I could only really use him for AQ and AW Attack when the path was the correct path for him. I never dared to bring him into end game content, bc chip damage alone would kill him after a fight or two.

    Cull was already released in the Basic pool by the time this announcement was made, so isn’t this already breaking your new policy?

    You guys asked us to beta test changes for champs and recently asked me and others to test new AQ Map content, but why should we test if you are going to take away from the champs we rank up? I think in all fairness, you should allow YouTube content creators like Dorky Diggity Dave, KT1, lagacy and Seatin to thoroughly play test and approve before any nerfs or changes are made to Cull and any future champs. These guy’s videos are the only reason you are exposed to things that champs can do in the game.

    Take a look at how you are turning even them off right now, with changes...
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,361 ★★★★★
    thano said:

    Ok kabam you made it you WON! I will now swear to God Ill stop spending those little catalyst offers that I was spending on this game. I Will stop it cause nerfing a middle tier champ like cull means the direction of this game is making a game like Street fighter 2. boring. next is namor then ghost then Omega then comes ofcourse sunspot and his sp2 then domino, I can see that movie coming from a loooong way and I'm not part of it anymore. I JUST STOPPED SPENDING. and just happens you know, I'm a mod in 65 line chats and I'm part of 138 line chats with Tens of thousands of summoners in there and I can have my opinion on this game there. goodluck Marvels street fighter tutorial of the champions 2! ;)

    Cull is a beyond god tier champ, after all if he was mid tier there would not be these complaints.
  • Satisfied with Ronin? The best he has is his stun... how's about increasing his damage or SOME utility added, after all, this version of Ronin IS equipped with the POWER STONE...........................................................................................
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,361 ★★★★★
    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    mufix said:

    Lormif said:

    I disagree, because I see the game being balanced as more important than individual champions. With this change I know that if I buy a champion that champion will not necessarily be made useless by newer champions.

    But if you spend +-$100 (or hard earned units) for that champion, rank him up, use awakening gem and sig stones and than after 3 months they nerf him, how would you feel? You will be glad that the game is balanced and more important than that champion?
    It has happened to me multiple times, domino, SS, and others. I feel fine, I dont overreact, and in those cases I understood their concerns, just like here. I dont want my champions to get to the point where they cause others to either have them or be unable to do content because they are lacking the champ.
    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    I think the issue is not about cull, it is about the way kabam doing this business. Now kabam delivered a message to all the players that don’t spend any money to buy new champions because you don’t know what you are buying. Of course kabam can change everything because they already put in terms and conditions, but this kind of stupid change will destroy the paid players, no one wants to spend money to this game, is this kabam want?

    I disagree, because I see the game being balanced as more important than individual champions. With this change I know that if I buy a champion that champion will not necessarily be made useless by newer champions.
    If they want to balance a champ that they think is "OP" (which cull is not) then do it within the first week of the champion being released. There is no excuse for them to wait this long.
    In order to do that they have to know within a week that he is OK, and yes there are plenty of reasons to wait this long.
    You're telling me that majority of the community is aware of culls damage within the first week with all videos and talk about him but kabam is soo out of touch with their community that they aren't aware of it?
    Lol.....they are just waiting for people spend money. That's the only reason there is. Greed.
    So you expect them to have the same knee jerk response that you do? I would rather them have a logical response to gather all data and go from there, which from what they are saying is what they did.
    Huh! I guess it's better to not tell their player base anything till they are done spending their hard earned money.
    It's not a knee jerk reaction if they let their community know that cull is doing more damage than he is supposed to do and that they might change that.

    It's not like cull has a bug or something where is outputs crazy damage against specific fights. They were aware of their damage even before they released him. THAT WAS HIS MAIN ABILITY.
    They knew how much damage he was doing from start. If that was unacceptable to their pockets then put out a statement right away.
    That's what every decent game company does.
    No true scottsman fallacy.And no that is not what every "decent" company does. Companies who need to keep their game balanced general nerf and buff as needed. his main ability is damage, but that does not mean the damage has to be so obscene.
    Okay lets try this again. If cull's damage was obscene then why not address it in the first week.
    It's not like he is broken. He has been doing the same amount of damage since day one.
    Are you seriously saying that kabam just realized that his damage is too much.
    Ok, lets trying this again. You can know the damgage is large, but you need to get how that interacts on a vast number of fights to see how bad it is, something you cannot do in testing, or the first week. Pure statistics speaks louder then just base observations. It could have been that he ran into issues with interactions they did not account for, and was therefore more limited then watching people run over ROL.
    He has the same interaction with everything. He nearly does the same amount of damage with every champ. He has been like this since day one.
    And he has to have been interacting the same way during testing ( that is if they tested him properly).
    I dont understand how are you justifying this.
    All of his capabilities and interaction were out in the first week. THATS WHY PEOPLE SPENT MONEY ON HIM.
    Really, so his interaction with the nodes in 6.2, or aw season 10 were out when he was released? I mean they were not even out at that time. In the first week they had interactions with every single node int he game in repeatedly? Come on dude really?
This discussion has been closed.