Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

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Comments

  • mufixmufix Posts: 42
    Lormif said:


    It is an overreaction because you do not even know what the changes will be, he may still be the best damage dealer, he may get better utility in exchange, but it about clearing content from a game balance perspective.

    this is not about proper testing, again there is no amount of testing that can ensure this will not happen. You can look at any mmo that places emphasis on balance, you will always see these types of changes.

    Domino was bugged at release, she was supposed to do multiple times bleed on an sp2. In stead of fixing that they nerfed her abilities to meet what she could do.

    I disagree. Just because I'm not talking about Cull, but for any new champion they will add in the game. Just read what I wrote again, and you'll see what I mean. I have Cull and I'm not using him a lot. But, to change something that is in the game months after release is mad. I will say again: people spend tons of cash (or hard earned units) for a champion they want. They are advertised and shown before coming in crystals. People buy those crystals because of that. Rebalancing after a week or two, i get. But 3 months after release? Again: mad.

    And yes, there is proper testing. I know how QA teams do it. I work with them.

    I don't want to repeat myself over and over again. So I'll just stop commenting.

    Domino was fixed right away, not few months later. And you said: she was bugged. There is a difference between bug and nerf/buff after 3 months.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,365 ★★★★★
    mufix said:

    Lormif said:


    It is an overreaction because you do not even know what the changes will be, he may still be the best damage dealer, he may get better utility in exchange, but it about clearing content from a game balance perspective.

    this is not about proper testing, again there is no amount of testing that can ensure this will not happen. You can look at any mmo that places emphasis on balance, you will always see these types of changes.

    Domino was bugged at release, she was supposed to do multiple times bleed on an sp2. In stead of fixing that they nerfed her abilities to meet what she could do.

    I disagree. Just because I'm not talking about Cull, but for any new champion they will add in the game. Just read what I wrote again, and you'll see what I mean. I have Cull and I'm not using him a lot. But, to change something that is in the game months after release is mad. I will say again: people spend tons of cash (or hard earned units) for a champion they want. They are advertised and shown before coming in crystals. People buy those crystals because of that. Rebalancing after a week or two, i get. But 3 months after release? Again: mad.

    And yes, there is proper testing. I know how QA teams do it. I work with them.

    I don't want to repeat myself over and over again. So I'll just stop commenting.

    Domino was fixed right away, not few months later. And you said: she was bugged. There is a difference between bug and nerf/buff after 3 months.
    So doyou not care about balance of the game, because that is what you are implying. There is nothing mad about chaning something even months after relese if it is putting the game out of balance. The amount of cash you spent means less than the balance of the game.

    Domino was not fixed right away, she was never fixed. She was nerfed SEVEN MONTHS after she was released. She was released in June of 2018 and nerfed in Jan 2019. They felt fixing her would make her overpowered, so they changed her description to meet her current state, which is still a nerf.
  • Harry_hzyHarry_hzy Posts: 22
    mufix said:

    Lormif said:


    It is an overreaction because you do not even know what the changes will be, he may still be the best damage dealer, he may get better utility in exchange, but it about clearing content from a game balance perspective.

    this is not about proper testing, again there is no amount of testing that can ensure this will not happen. You can look at any mmo that places emphasis on balance, you will always see these types of changes.

    Domino was bugged at release, she was supposed to do multiple times bleed on an sp2. In stead of fixing that they nerfed her abilities to meet what she could do.

    I disagree. Just because I'm not talking about Cull, but for any new champion they will add in the game. Just read what I wrote again, and you'll see what I mean. I have Cull and I'm not using him a lot. But, to change something that is in the game months after release is mad. I will say again: people spend tons of cash (or hard earned units) for a champion they want. They are advertised and shown before coming in crystals. People buy those crystals because of that. Rebalancing after a week or two, i get. But 3 months after release? Again: mad.

    And yes, there is proper testing. I know how QA teams do it. I work with them.

    I don't want to repeat myself over and over again. So I'll just stop commenting.

    Domino was fixed right away, not few months later. And you said: she was bugged. There is a difference between bug and nerf/buff after 3 months.

    Mufix,I totally agree with you. If I am free player, didn’t spend any dollar, I will think game balance is the most important thing. I can accept any change, anything. If player spent lots of money to get the new champions and rank them up, they know what you said is 100% correct.
  • mufixmufix Posts: 42
    edited September 2019
    Lormif said:


    So doyou not care about balance of the game, because that is what you are implying. There is nothing mad about chaning something even months after relese if it is putting the game out of balance. The amount of cash you spent means less than the balance of the game.

    Means less? That cash keeps this game alive. Without that cash there's no need for balancing. Don't you dare saying that is less important :smiley::smiley::smiley:

    My bad about Domino :wink:
  • ZENZEN Posts: 148
    Lormif said:

    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    mufix said:

    Lormif said:

    I disagree, because I see the game being balanced as more important than individual champions. With this change I know that if I buy a champion that champion will not necessarily be made useless by newer champions.

    But if you spend +-$100 (or hard earned units) for that champion, rank him up, use awakening gem and sig stones and than after 3 months they nerf him, how would you feel? You will be glad that the game is balanced and more important than that champion?
    It has happened to me multiple times, domino, SS, and others. I feel fine, I dont overreact, and in those cases I understood their concerns, just like here. I dont want my champions to get to the point where they cause others to either have them or be unable to do content because they are lacking the champ.
    M_virk said:

    Lormif said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    I think the issue is not about cull, it is about the way kabam doing this business. Now kabam delivered a message to all the players that don’t spend any money to buy new champions because you don’t know what you are buying. Of course kabam can change everything because they already put in terms and conditions, but this kind of stupid change will destroy the paid players, no one wants to spend money to this game, is this kabam want?

    I disagree, because I see the game being balanced as more important than individual champions. With this change I know that if I buy a champion that champion will not necessarily be made useless by newer champions.
    If they want to balance a champ that they think is "OP" (which cull is not) then do it within the first week of the champion being released. There is no excuse for them to wait this long.
    In order to do that they have to know within a week that he is OK, and yes there are plenty of reasons to wait this long.
    You're telling me that majority of the community is aware of culls damage within the first week with all videos and talk about him but kabam is soo out of touch with their community that they aren't aware of it?
    Lol.....they are just waiting for people spend money. That's the only reason there is. Greed.
    So you expect them to have the same knee jerk response that you do? I would rather them have a logical response to gather all data and go from there, which from what they are saying is what they did.
    Huh! I guess it's better to not tell their player base anything till they are done spending their hard earned money.
    It's not a knee jerk reaction if they let their community know that cull is doing more damage than he is supposed to do and that they might change that.

    It's not like cull has a bug or something where is outputs crazy damage against specific fights. They were aware of their damage even before they released him. THAT WAS HIS MAIN ABILITY.
    They knew how much damage he was doing from start. If that was unacceptable to their pockets then put out a statement right away.
    That's what every decent game company does.
    No true scottsman fallacy.And no that is not what every "decent" company does. Companies who need to keep their game balanced general nerf and buff as needed. his main ability is damage, but that does not mean the damage has to be so obscene.
    Okay lets try this again. If cull's damage was obscene then why not address it in the first week.
    It's not like he is broken. He has been doing the same amount of damage since day one.
    Are you seriously saying that kabam just realized that his damage is too much.
    Ok, lets trying this again. You can know the damgage is large, but you need to get how that interacts on a vast number of fights to see how bad it is, something you cannot do in testing, or the first week. Pure statistics speaks louder then just base observations. It could have been that he ran into issues with interactions they did not account for, and was therefore more limited then watching people run over ROL.
    WHAT? Cull is pretty straight forward to play to get big damages. If you can't get that on testing. Stop playing this game and play rock paper scissors... You don't deserve to be a beta tester. You are just plain dumb.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,365 ★★★★★

    The biggest issue here is that to everyone who understands the game at a high level, Cull isn't OP. He has so little utility that his one redeeming feature isn't worth it.

    Now that we all see that a champ who isn't really that good is going to get nerfed we have to assume that the actually good champs released after him will also be nerfed (Warlock, Claire, Namore, Sunspot, Stelthy, ect.). Many of us are seeing that all the time and money spend to get and rank these new champs might soon be worthless. Even if only 2-3 of them get nerfed that's 3-4 of the past few hyped up champs nerfed.

    This sets a pretty bad president. Once they start nerfing champs that people actually care about and play every day in high tier AW, Map 7 and Act 6 you will actually see real backlash.

    loveing all the false dilemma and appeal to authority fallacies.

    Even Seatin has him listed as above god tier, does he not understand the game at a high level?

  • SupaflyaznSupaflyazn Posts: 73

    WingTSE said:

    Why not just make champs that can counter balance those champs rather than constantly nerfing champs?

    When you have a Champion that wildly outdamages other Champions, and we start making content to counter that specific Champion, this harshly punishes every other Champion in game, and every Summoner that does not have that Champion.
    You know what this reminds me of... the "have nots" when BW, SW, DS and Thor were completely nerfed to the ground. But specifically, Scarlet Witch. She was the end-all-be-all, for all those who envied those who had her... they cried that "it's not fair, I don't have a SWitch," and you listened via 12.0, getting rid of Perfect Block teams, and the original god tier champs. There's one HUGE difference in this instance though, Cull does not have even 1/8th of the utility that SW had. Even though she wasn't immune, she could nullify, put her "Veil of Fortune" on and go to town, ending everyone in a S2. The meta has changed, and now you release god-tier champs, with the intention of bringing them back down to earth when you see fit. How is this fair to those of us who invested resources and cash money into the game? This is a typical "bait and switch" tactic... unlike before, there isn't a SWitch to nerf, just the bait :rage:
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,365 ★★★★★

    The biggest issue here is that to everyone who understands the game at a high level, Cull isn't OP. He has so little utility that his one redeeming feature isn't worth it.

    Now that we all see that a champ who isn't really that good is going to get nerfed we have to assume that the actually good champs released after him will also be nerfed (Warlock, Claire, Namore, Sunspot, Stelthy, ect.). Many of us are seeing that all the time and money spend to get and rank these new champs might soon be worthless. Even if only 2-3 of them get nerfed that's 3-4 of the past few hyped up champs nerfed.

    This sets a pretty bad president. Once they start nerfing champs that people actually care about and play every day in high tier AW, Map 7 and Act 6 you will actually see real backlash.

    wait until they rebalance ghost and her synergies or even Corvus, as I said this is 12.0 all over but this time they're taking their time and calling it a rebalance of champs.
    12.0 was needed. As a new player months before 12.0 the only thing that got me through was my perseverance. If you started off with IF or the wrong champs as your firsts you could not compete and your growth was stunted.
  • Midknight007Midknight007 Posts: 725 ★★★
    Lormif said:

    Lormif said:

    Lormif said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    I think the issue is not about cull, it is about the way kabam doing this business. Now kabam delivered a message to all the players that don’t spend any money to buy new champions because you don’t know what you are buying. Of course kabam can change everything because they already put in terms and conditions, but this kind of stupid change will destroy the paid players, no one wants to spend money to this game, is this kabam want?

    I disagree, because I see the game being balanced as more important than individual champions. With this change I know that if I buy a champion that champion will not necessarily be made useless by newer champions.
    Cull does not unbalance the game for anyone except Kabam and their ability to do damage to the player on solo content. You hardly ever see Cull on AW defense... He is too easy too evade and will not have any ramp up. He shines in AW Offense, but the player does need to spend on pots the first couple fights sometimes. In later fights, he can clear nodes easier, but you still need a skilled player behind the Cull to done mini-bosses and bosses in AQ.

    The only unbalance is versus Kabam's EQ material. That is not truly unbalanced, and the fact they have to figure ways to work around Cull is evidence that they should have tested Champs a lot more before releasing them. THese champions are not made in a month, they are planned several months in advance. That is why we get a wallpaper of the State of the Battlerealm with question marks at the beginning of the year. They know who the champions will be and start mapping out their skills and abilities long before they are released. Not to mention the CCP also helps them acquire data long before the Champ's official release. They need to be more proactive early in the release and not after a champs release and people wasted time and money to acquire them. if anything, it is unbalanced to the players that worked hard towards acquiring something.
    except that is, because that is how they keep the game going. Not AW, AW you can manage all your resources with glory, which is easy to obtain. There is no reason to need to buy anything for AW in general, or atleast not much. If a champ makes it so you can, with little skill, buypass content then it unbalances the game, because then they have to balance around that champion, to make him weaker vs that content, this has the effect to make other champs who are worse then him even more difficult to clear said content and creates haves and have nots, which is more devastating for the game.
    Bwahahahaha At what level do you play? Seriously, give us a screenshot of your alliance homepage. I see a lot of 30% buffs that are spent on this from top tier teams. You can't buy those with Glory, pal. Those are either units or through $$$$ deals.

    Not to mention, they already made tons of money with crystals for Cull... they would be cutting their nose to spite their face. Your arguments hold little to no weight because you haven't thought it out. You are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

    "...they have to balance around that champion, to make him weaker vs that content, this has the effect to make other champs who are worse then him even more difficult to clear said content..."

    First off, please write in complete sentences. These run on sentences are terrible.

    Secondly, this is NOT true. It is only true when you only look at sheer damage. They have nodes that already counter Cull (Biohazard, Thorns, Caltrops, Safeguard to name a few). You can still defeat nodes with other champs, some may take longer than others. The argument of skill is mute. If you have little to no skill and face any of those nodes I mention are faced and you are forced not to use your all-powerful Cull, you will need to feed the unit machine. This is nothing to do with balance. You CANNOT balance skill. You either are skillled or you are not. Kabam is just adding another level of difficulty to the unskilled if they tune down Cull in order to cost them more (thus widening the divide between skilled and unskilled rather than "balancing it").

    Skilled players do not need Cull to beat any of these challenges. I have a 5/65 5* sig 200 Cull. I only use him in AW Offense, so your argument is false on it's face and I know from experience. i don't even need Cull to clear EQ or Variant. So, please try harder to come up with a valid argument prior to disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

    :)

    My tier does not matter, though I am in plat.

    Second I specifically left room for buffs, when I said "not that much". You do not need to buy revies or health pots, and as you pointed out the 30% buffs come in deals, typically for other things that they are being bought for. I clearly thought it out better then your personal attacks.

    Third that was not a run on sentence, there is clearly commas and it was all around a single thought.

    Sheer damage is very important. It means they have to create nods that is resistant to sheer damage, which means that champs that dont have the sheer damage suffer. it is also not an argument of skill, skill only accounts for a little bit.

    Actually they are removing the layer of difficulty. This is like claiming the 12.0 nerf was going to hurt the unskilled, as though regening the character requires skill.

    Your post lacks foresight. You dont need him NOW, but I have been talking about NEW and FUTURE content, which I made very clear. So please try harder to come up with an actual counter to my argument.
    We are not going to agree, so why do you keep trying. And yes, that was a run-on sentence. Commas do not prevent a sentence from being a run-on sentence. It makes it even more confusing. you are linking independent clauses into a complex sentence and forcing a run-on. It can be called a comma-splice. However, you added several comma-splices in the same sentence (hence why it is now back to being a run-on).

    Here is the full sentence you wrote
    "If a champ makes it so you can, with little skill, buypass content then it unbalances the game, because then they have to balance around that champion, to make him weaker vs that content, this has the effect to make other champs who are worse then him even more difficult to clear said content and creates haves and have nots, which is more devastating for the game."

    Your grammar is wrong all the way up to the first comma. There are a total of 6 commas... adding a comma does not prevent a run-on. Having multiples makes it even more complex and harder to read. There are several independent statements that are within other statements and it makes the sentence a jumbled mess. It is indeed a run-on, as it would be a comma-splice if it was written like this sentence. See the difference? Probably not.

    Also, I don't accept your I am Platinum statement. It is easy to prove... post your screenshot.

    My post doesn't lack foresight. You don't know they future content either, so you cannot make a statement that Cull makes it hard for Kabam to account for. Like I said, they already have nodes that counteract him. And even nodes that Cull is good for, a skilled player can clear without using Cull. Sorry, mate... but your arguments are very weak. You are the only one who can't see it.

    Tootles, mate.
  • r3dyr3dy Posts: 30
    Patchie93 said:

    r3dy said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    I mean if a company like samsung can release a phone that catches fire it makes sense that things can be tested and not every little detail is perfect.
    It only depends on what these "small" details are, if we are talking about damage, then it is completely possible to test them before releasing them. What we are seeing here are not BUG, the output damage is the result of a mathematical process is not an unexpected interaction.
  • Nick_Caine_32Nick_Caine_32 Posts: 587 ★★★★
    If you're gonna do something to Domino I would love to know now, since I am still sitting on resources to rank 5 her and don't wanna get surprised a few months from now
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,365 ★★★★★

    Lormif said:

    The biggest issue here is that to everyone who understands the game at a high level, Cull isn't OP. He has so little utility that his one redeeming feature isn't worth it.

    Now that we all see that a champ who isn't really that good is going to get nerfed we have to assume that the actually good champs released after him will also be nerfed (Warlock, Claire, Namore, Sunspot, Stelthy, ect.). Many of us are seeing that all the time and money spend to get and rank these new champs might soon be worthless. Even if only 2-3 of them get nerfed that's 3-4 of the past few hyped up champs nerfed.

    This sets a pretty bad president. Once they start nerfing champs that people actually care about and play every day in high tier AW, Map 7 and Act 6 you will actually see real backlash.

    loveing all the false dilemma and appeal to authority fallacies.

    Even Seatin has him listed as above god tier, does he not understand the game at a high level?

    Namedropping fallacies doesn't mean that they actually exist or that you've correctly identified them.

    Those tiers are only useful for noobs and people that don't bother to read anything about the champs to apply reasoning. You'll get more useful information out of looking at who they actually use to get through content when they're streaming. It's not Cull.
    Youre correct, it doesnt meant that, but in this case it is.

    "The biggest issue here is that to everyone who understands the game at a high level, Cull isn't OP."

    This is a text book case of a false dilemma, it narrows the scope of the set of peopel to that to only those who agree with the author.

    And what you consider those things useful for has no relevance.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,365 ★★★★★
    r3dy said:

    r3dy said:

    Beyond00_ said:

    Honestly, they haven't even started the rework yet (presumably), and people are going off the wall. All we know is the data has shown that his Damage is higher than any other Champ, so that will most likely change. We don't know how much, we don't know what else will come, all we know is he's changing. Is anyone else waiting to see, or are we all on fire? Lol.

    Data, how about actually playing the game first and see for yourself?. Also they wrote the data, so how could that be a surprise?.
    I play the game. Yes, they wrote the data. They also examine it to see if it's where they want it to be. That's the other part of the job.
    Yeah but they have to see it before release, its call quality assurance and testing
    It's impossible to analyze data before a release. The data is what shows how they perform(ed). Past Tense. If you mean they should find all problems before they release, the game would never go live. Testing won't prevent issues from coming up.
    quite the opposite, most of the issues in any product are solved before release, base on the data that was gathered during testing, and i dont mean "all problems", but damage can easily be tested. If you are going to tell me that kabam doesn't know what the damage will be of champions they are releasing, then that shows how poorly is the testing process (if there is any...), users are not doing anything "weird" with cull to get the crazy damage, they are just using the champions as it was design
    they have an idea, but ideas can be wrong. Again you need 1000 poins of data from every type of interaction to get a statistically relevant idea on how they work.
  • Lio_BioLio_Bio Posts: 1
    Wtfffff I spend a lot of $ for get champions and now after i got cull you want to nerf him in the 3 time?!?!? You must stop i call to all the players to stop to spend money on this game because kabam gice us to see a show from the new champions like 3 months after that the nerf is coming out **** that!!! I want all my money backkk allll!!!!
  • New_Noob168New_Noob168 Posts: 1,490 ★★★★
    What next ? Ghost and Corvus. They do high damage too. Nerf them.
    Rank down tickets aren’t enough. I spent lots $&$ to get Cull in the crystals because of who he was.

    If they do nerf him, I’m not spending jack. Been fooled too many times by them
  • JbwildeJbwilde Posts: 55
    Let me just throw this out here. This is your chance to show this doesn’t have to be a nightmare for people to see their champ go under review. If there is take there is going to need to be some give too. I know many people would be fine if cull lost a bit of damage if his block proficiency went up by a bit. That would remove the problem of him “ending fights before there could be any significant damage dealt”. If you get this give and take wrong this time people are going to be very discouraged from buying crystals with new champs until they see if they are getting nerfed or not. The summoner digit will lose value because what’s the point of buying a featured 5*. I feel like you will see a significant drop in the number of people willing to buy featured cavaliers. So do this right or it will be like 12.0 all over again except slower. Just think about it. Communication with your community is key at this point.
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