Winter of Woe Community Chat [MERGED THREADS]

Deacon

I mean honestly ... the energy cost is the least of what's wrong with this fight. Yes it's dumb but the fight itself is dumber by miles.

ahmynuts

Can you edit the beginning of this post to include "I just think it's funny how -"

That way we can have the full authentic receipt experience

Charlie21540

*February 6th, 2024

o_o

laserjohn26 said:

Great content. Back to the good days where skill is necessary and everyone can't get through content in 10 minutes.

Those people who have played the game only since herc came out and never explored act 6 with 5*3 and r4 before it was ever nerfed might now understand why they see *skill issue* so often now.

My least favorite kind of troll is the kind that hides behind a private profile

Kabam Jax

Would love to hop in here and add some additional insight.

There are times where choices are made or systems are implemented when we know Summoners are going to be unhappy, but those changes are deemed necessary. Take a look at removing revive farming, most recently, as an example. Just because we know this choice is going to be unpopular, doesn't mean they aren't warranted. Sometimes there is a fundamental difference between what Summoners want and what the game needs, we've discussed this concept here before.

What you're seeing in the livestream isn't us trying to sell you on the energy being a positive, because that would be ridiculous.

We also spoke honestly about why this energy cost needs to exist. But for extra context, there are many players who would dive into this type of content, practice, lose and restart in order to work towards a solo, literally requiring no cost to their account. I don't mean cost in a financial sense, but as we said on the stream, Summoners aren't meant to get high rewards for literally nothing. (don't say time; that isn't a relevant resource in the game's economical balance).

Aside from restating what happened in the livestream, I'm not sure what the commentary is here? We presented information we knew wouldn't be popular from the community, but knew was necessary from a game design perspective? If that's all, glad we're aligned.

Theholyplunger

@kabam Kevin or whatever you handle is...you did a bad job. We love(d) Necropolis. That was fantastic. Difficult, but manageable. Even that airwalker was fun when you get into the right rhythm. This AbsMan robot objective is horrid. You got heaps of praise for doing such a good job on Necro. Time to take your criticism back to the drawing board. Do better.

Siliyo

Nah Jax, it seems like after the revive farming the team is using the excuse “what the game needs” a bit too much and loosely at the moment. The reality is the way the entry cost worked for previous Limited Time Endgame content were fine as it is. Content creators resetting and going for solos? I definitely see that happening. Assuming the majority of the community is doing the same? That’s a ridiculous claim.

Ironman3000

That's just nonsense. Going from 1 energy to 10 is just garbage all around. WTF is there that empty node? You could have easily just made it 5 (like you announced) and there wouldn't nearly have been the outrage.

Kabam Jax

Siliyo said:

Nah Jax, it seems like after the revive farming the team is using the excuse “what the game needs” a bit too much and loosely at the moment. The reality is the way the entry cost worked for previous Limited Time Endgame content were fine as it is. Content creators resetting and going for solos? I definitely see that happening. Assuming the majority of the community is doing the same? That’s a ridiculous claim.

I didn't say "majority," by any means. But you also have to keep in mind that we have data that shows Summoner behaviour, we're not simply pulling anecdotal information from our limited reach of conversational community members.

I'm not saying everyone should be happy with this, I'm simply providing context. We're aware of the sentiment, we're paying attention to feedback.

Chovner

@Kabam Jax
My main point for making this post is just to point out that the game team thinking that 10 energy per run is a very low cost for this content is very much the opposite of what the player base majority seem to think so there's an opportunity to reflect and re-assess how you guys look at the game requirements in comparison to how we look at them. I totally get that the game team's motives are different than the players, but when there's this much (mostly) unanimous feedback from the game community then something missed the mark and should be re-evaluated for future instances.

Ironman3000

Kabam Jax said:

Siliyo said:

Nah Jax, it seems like after the revive farming the team is using the excuse “what the game needs” a bit too much and loosely at the moment. The reality is the way the entry cost worked for previous Limited Time Endgame content were fine as it is. Content creators resetting and going for solos? I definitely see that happening. Assuming the majority of the community is doing the same? That’s a ridiculous claim.

I didn't say "majority," by any means. But you also have to keep in mind that we have data that shows Summoner behaviour, we're not simply pulling anecdotal information from our limited reach of conversational community members.

I'm not saying everyone should be happy with this, I'm simply providing context. We're aware of the sentiment, we're paying attention to feedback.

Nerfing the revive farm and then adding this high energy cost event a month later seems like no coincidence either. IMO you guys are way off on either the energy or difficulty of WOW.

GinjabredMonsta

Kabam Jax said:

We also spoke honestly about why this energy cost needs to exist. But for extra context, there are many players who would dive into this type of content, practice, lose and restart in order to work towards a solo, literally requiring no cost to their account. I don't mean cost in a financial sense, but as we said on the stream, Summoners aren't meant to get high rewards for literally nothing. (don't say time; that isn't a relevant resource in the game's economical balance).

Jax, my man, I love ya, but this paragraph doesn’t sit well with me.
If time isn’t the a relevant source (which you and I can disagree on till the cows come home regarding this content) and it isn’t financial, then what is it? Revives and pots? Revives that can’t be massively farmed anymore (which I totally understand) and pots that we have to use energy to farm, use time to farm units, or use money to buy units and these.

This really just leaves energy, which I can understand being a cost, however, justifying 10 for fight is hard.
When it comes to this type of content, practice is important to a lot of summoners in order to test different champs, favored champs, and to get a good strategy down. I personally attempted the fights for EOP so many times before I got a solo or got close enough to justify revives.

Having 10 be the cost really limits the amount of practice for these insanely high skill fights as well limits what other content we want to do for the rest of the month.

I doubt that the energy cost can be lessened for this fight, but I do hope conversations are shooing in the background to lessen it for the rest of the fights.

Eternity0

So are you or game team is saying everyone is the same skill category level as lets say extreme example msd. When you classify "we need to give something to have something" we are using revives as resources which is your financial cost for game economy. I can assure you most people won't get a solo in robot objective its Very difficult i like that aspect. I don't like more so the 10 energy cost. It does nothing. It has no purpose. Sole purpose of it is pushing people to use item on a try they otherwise would not have if it was 1 energy as before. Don't try to hide behind "Financial cost".

Siliyo

It’s not what you said directly, it’s what you implied. If revive farming wasn’t as known as widespread, would it have been nerfed? Highly unlikely since there wouldn’t be as many summoners, hence less data for you guys.

What exactly has your “data” determined about high energy costs? When you implement stuff like this, don’t be surprised people are only interested in the “best” options available since their entries are limited. Since entries are limited, it does not encourage people testing other champions. Unless, that’s what you guys don’t want? I’m not sure if the team is having an identity crisis on that matter.

Kabam Jax

Chovner said:

@Kabam Jax
My main point for making this post is just to point out that the game team thinking that 10 energy per run is a very low cost for this content is very much the opposite of what the player base majority seem to think so there's an opportunity to reflect and re-assess how you guys look at the game requirements in comparison to how we look at them. I totally get that the game team's motives are different than the players, but when there's this much (mostly) unanimous feedback from the game community then something missed the mark and should be re-evaluated for future instances.

I agree. There are times where the difference in opinions re: game team intentions v. Summoner reactions are pretty vast. And it's why these community spaces are important. We're always paying attention, we're always speaking internally about these types of things; your feedback is important to us, even if some feel we aren't paying attention.

Emilia90

Kabam Jax said:

Would love to hop in here and add some additional insight.

There are times where choices are made or systems are implemented when we know Summoners are going to be unhappy, but those changes are deemed necessary. Take a look at removing revive farming, most recently, as an example. Just because we know this choice is going to be unpopular, doesn't mean they aren't warranted. Sometimes there is a fundamental difference between what Summoners want and what the game needs, we've discussed this concept here before.

What you're seeing in the livestream isn't us trying to sell you on the energy being a positive, because that would be ridiculous.

We also spoke honestly about why this energy cost needs to exist. But for extra context, there are many players who would dive into this type of content, practice, lose and restart in order to work towards a solo, literally requiring no cost to their account. I don't mean cost in a financial sense, but as we said on the stream, Summoners aren't meant to get high rewards for literally nothing. (don't say time; that isn't a relevant resource in the game's economical balance).

Aside from restating what happened in the livestream, I'm not sure what the commentary is here? We presented information we knew wouldn't be popular from the community, but knew was necessary from a game design perspective? If that's all, glad we're aligned.

This fight was way overturned to cost 10 energy per try. I understand it needs a cost, but there’s literally a mega thread of people listing why this fight is overturned for the energy cost.

The level of difficulty for the objectives is really hard, which is fine for endgame content and whatnot, but we have to spend 10 energy on a fight that we can die in one blocked hit from. It takes many many tries to perfect the robot objective or the gamma objective and there’s so many nodes that can destroy you even if you play well simply due to ai. This isn’t good for the game in the slightest and I can’t believe that the massive amounts of feedback in the other thread hasn’t been addressed yet

Nemesis_17

So we as players “need” to dump a lot of energy to complete a challenge? Please explain why this is a “need.” What was wrong with 0 energy like the first time around?

Ironman3000

Good point. Glad to see that Kabam doesn't consider the hours of game time it took to get solos as meaningful. All they care about is consumable used. Very sad way to look at your players.

Viper198787

Kabam Jax said:

Would love to hop in here and add some additional insight.

There are times where choices are made or systems are implemented when we know Summoners are going to be unhappy, but those changes are deemed necessary. Take a look at removing revive farming, most recently, as an example. Just because we know this choice is going to be unpopular, doesn't mean they aren't warranted. Sometimes there is a fundamental difference between what Summoners want and what the game needs, we've discussed this concept here before.

What you're seeing in the livestream isn't us trying to sell you on the energy being a positive, because that would be ridiculous.

We also spoke honestly about why this energy cost needs to exist. But for extra context, there are many players who would dive into this type of content, practice, lose and restart in order to work towards a solo, literally requiring no cost to their account. I don't mean cost in a financial sense, but as we said on the stream, Summoners aren't meant to get high rewards for literally nothing. (don't say time; that isn't a relevant resource in the game's economical balance).

Aside from restating what happened in the livestream, I'm not sure what the commentary is here? We presented information we knew wouldn't be popular from the community, but knew was necessary from a game design perspective? If that's all, glad we're aligned.

Making this challenge 10 energy per attempt doesn’t seem like a necessity. It seems like a way to deter players from engaging in your game. We have 7 attempts at a time to attempt this overtuned fight. This locks us out of other content, side quests, event quest, or battlegrounds. It’s a frustrating fight too with nodes that punish you for being too aggressive and not aggressive at all. Why wouldn’t you reduce the cost to 2 or 4 energy so people can actually be more excited to try and learn the fight? As far as I’m concerned this sets an extremely demoralizing tone for the entire season and makes me not even want to try. And this is coming from a Valiant player who enjoyed necropolis.

Deacon

Kabam Jax said:

Would love to hop in here and add some additional insight.

There are times where choices are made or systems are implemented when we know Summoners are going to be unhappy, but those changes are deemed necessary. Take a look at removing revive farming, most recently, as an example. Just because we know this choice is going to be unpopular, doesn't mean they aren't warranted. Sometimes there is a fundamental difference between what Summoners want and what the game needs, we've discussed this concept here before.

What you're seeing in the livestream isn't us trying to sell you on the energy being a positive, because that would be ridiculous.

We also spoke honestly about why this energy cost needs to exist. But for extra context, there are many players who would dive into this type of content, practice, lose and restart in order to work towards a solo, literally requiring no cost to their account. I don't mean cost in a financial sense, but as we said on the stream, Summoners aren't meant to get high rewards for literally nothing. (don't say time; that isn't a relevant resource in the game's economical balance).

Aside from restating what happened in the livestream, I'm not sure what the commentary is here? We presented information we knew wouldn't be popular from the community, but knew was necessary from a game design perspective? If that's all, glad we're aligned.

Color me bad (if you get the reference you win) but I completely get this. I don't have an issue at all with the energy cost but PLEASE tell me that there is real consideration of fixing the fight itself.

I think the community is game for difficult content and can applaud it when it's done right. But this fight is poop. The ridiculous regen coupled with the ongoing failure to get decent AI makes it 1% skill and 99% revive.

The mark was missed on this fight. Why take an L like this after so much win this game has done this year and at the end of last year ?? The fight sets positive community sentiment back by a HUGE margin.

Wong_98

BigBlueOx said:

It’s not even the roster limitations… it’s the removal of alternative damage sources these champ rely on

Almost every robot relies on burst damage or dot

BigBlueOx

Why 2 nodes? Why not one? It’s one fight, this simple adjustment would be a decent compromise between costs nothing and 10

Roggam

Assuming the majority of the “endgame” community is doing the same… is accurate.
I will be trying to limit each of these single fights to 1-2 revive max as done in EOP if I have the proper counter. And I am a measly 1 r3 7* paragon - barely clinging to “endgame” status.

_Pez_

Most people aren't going in multiple times trying to get a solo, most are going in multiple times until they get a not terrible run so would still on that half decent run be throwing revives at it....

Doesn't need the energy cost as well to cause a cost to the account. The need to rank up specific champions is a cost and the revives is a cost. Especially when players have to deal with bugs, dodgy ai and dropped inputs throughout the content too.

ahmynuts

Kabam Jax said:

Chovner said:

@Kabam Jax
My main point for making this post is just to point out that the game team thinking that 10 energy per run is a very low cost for this content is very much the opposite of what the player base majority seem to think so there's an opportunity to reflect and re-assess how you guys look at the game requirements in comparison to how we look at them. I totally get that the game team's motives are different than the players, but when there's this much (mostly) unanimous feedback from the game community then something missed the mark and should be re-evaluated for future instances.

I agree. There are times where the difference in opinions re: game team intentions v. Summoner reactions are pretty vast. And it's why these community spaces are important. We're always paying attention, we're always speaking internally about these types of things; your feedback is important to us, even if some feel we aren't paying attention.

My 2 cents on what missed the mark for both ends is that many were fine with the energy requirement on paper when we heard you and Kevin speaking about it because we assumed this would be similar to sop, eop, or necropolis. This fight is harder than all of those and the requirements are astronomically more punishing than what we've had before. If the fight wasn't the way it was or maybe if this was the final boss I think everything would have smoothed over better.

Tldr. Energy change was fine based on what we knew about similar previous content. Content actually dropped and it is the original act 7 of endgame content

Bugmat78

Wardruna said:

Why doesn’t power drain work? Tried OG Vision and warlock and no power drain

I know a bugged node made Warlock's infections bugged - I assume the same reason for Vision. I tried OG vision too and he would drain Abs once and no further.

Bugmat78

Etm34 said:

The robot tag is absolutely brutal. No viable way to deal with the unstoppable besides Dragon Man SP1, but the animation is so dang long you’re often throwing it into a block.

Also, wanted to point out the sheer ridiculousness of the reaction time.





Like, my fist is literally inside him before standing…in no way shape or form could they possibly block that! Not even mentioning the “root slide” with Sandman, where Abs just straight up moves while rooted.

That major AI issue, plus the robot objective kinda killed the fun for me

I saw this on Nick136's channel and happened to me a few times using Sandman. Rooted champs aren't supposed to block - they should try to heavy or throw their specials once their power comes back. yet another bug.

Standardman1989

So we remove the farm it doesn't matter the drop on my account is null but here the goal of the energies is to go a single pass without tests and spend a maximum of resources 😂. I prefer to stop and too bad for the future pieces of King groot 18 points it's ridiculous for me

26% and after There are at 80% with regen ..

GroundedWisdom

My take is there is a fine line between challenging content and way overboard. The Champ, the Nodes, the one-hit kill nature, the lack of Damage you can inflict, all of those spell a nasty combination. When you add 10 Energy per attempt (unless you want to Revive), that's salt on an already-gaping wound. Then add the fact that you can't miss one for the Objectives.....masochistic.

Chovner

@Kabam Jax You might hate me right now for this whole post, but do you think someone can edit the original title of this post to 2024 instead of 2023? I see we're kindred spirits as you recently made a similar forum post mistake when adding the Lunar event start dates lol