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New Carrina's challenges thoughts?

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    Standardman1989Standardman1989 Posts: 541 ★★★
    Nice job for the Carina 4 challenges it's not my thing I wouldn't do it but you have to respect your huge work at fair value even if we don't do it
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    AvnishAvnish Posts: 330 ★★
    edited February 15

    Avnish said:

    I would love to play WOW... don't want to waste so many revievs for just 7* crystal and that 7* selector...after 2-3 month these will be outdated...will do these when I have nothing left to do...with revive orr they are going to expire...

    For now WOW is much bigger thing than these garbage reward..

    And offcourse these objectives and garbage rewards not on the lagacy, karatemike, fintech..they just did their thier part..m

    If we talk about fintech objective i have to complete EOP all 16 annoying defender and then Thanos with jabari and tigra...I don't even know how much resources it will cost me..for single objective then i will get 5k 7* shards...

    What a joke...

    You do not have to do anything that you don't want to do, and this is not content that is required to progress. Sure, you may feel you need to do one for the Deathless King Groot piece, but you have plenty of time to do that because this is permanent content.

    This content is meant to be hard; it's meant to take time and cost you resources or be a hard skill check. We have never said that content needs to be done itemless, and we don't design content on that basis. If you want these rewards, you're either gonna have to be really skilled or be ready to use your stash of revives and potions.
    Thanks for the explanation @Kabam Miike kinda agree with your point. But reward could be more juicer in order to motivate the community. 5k shards for every objective seems very less. You give 3k shards from paragon guantlet. In which I spent zero resources and after so many revievs 5k is kinda very less in comparison.

    As I seen some videos of top players doing. I feel it is not that hard as it is looks except fintech objective. Zemo is crushing every defender in GMG. Lagacy's is easily doable. Fintech is kinda tricky. Becuz Single EOP fight is much harder the GMG fights..
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,822 Guardian
    xLunatiXx said:

    DNA3000 said:

    xLunatiXx said:

    DNA3000 said:

    If anything, I think we're all getting a little burned out by the endgame content being too difficult for the average player with rewards not being worth the time and frustration.

    Endgame content is not targeted to the average player upon release.

    Lagacy's challenges are without question the easiest ones *today* by a mile. However, his is rarity locked. It will always be as difficult as it is today. KMs and Fins are not rarity locked. They will get easier over time, both as people rank up the necessary champions and as higher ranks and rarities continue to be added to the game.

    Sometimes end game content is also temporary content, intended to be rewarding for the players who managed to reach the end game at the time the content is released. But most end game content is permanent, and is there to challenge end game players when it is released, and then to become more accessible over time. KM and Fin's challenges are never going to become easy in any reasonable amount of time, but they will become easier, just like Act 6 is now far more accessible, just like the Abyss is far more accessible, and something like the Labyrinth isn't even particularly challenging anymore.

    Even Lagacy's challenge is far outside the reach of the "average player" and it should be. It is probably doable by the average Paragon with significant potion usage, and doable by top 10% Paragons with minimal potion usage. But Mike's in my opinion targets top 5-10% Paragons and Valiants, and Fin's targets top 1% Paragons and Valiants. Both of those percentages will drop over time, but in my opinion those are not unreasonable targets to aim for when designing end game content, and the only reason for anyone outside of the very top tier players or players who enjoy high end challenges to target any of this content is the KG piece which only requires doing one of them. The easiest of them, Lagacy's challenges, targets an entirely reasonable strength level for a 7* Deathless champion.

    I think we the playerbase need to learn to not just tolerate content that might not be our cup of tea, but actually start learning to rejoice that content keeps getting added that is not our cup of tea, because it means the game continues to aim at a wide range of players, and that is good for the long term health of the game. It means the developers actually *care* about the long term heatlh of the game, because they see a long term existing at all. The day everything looks like something designed for any one of us to enjoy that's the day we should start worrying, because it means the devs are no longer concerned about doing anything but appeasing a small pool of existing players. That's the day the devs stop thinking about the future, because the game has no future.

    Content like this is not just about the tiny percentage of players who can do it today. It is about the future. Progressional games are about aspiration, and they target players who can handle not doing everything and aspiring to reach higher than what they can do today. It will take years for most players who pick up the game today to reach Act 8, to do Necropolis, to complete things like the Carina's challenges. Spending the money to add content like this says you expect the game to be around long enough for players to reach it, because there's not enough return on investment for that time if just a few content creators make videos doing it and a couple hundred players decide to do it for giggles.
    KM and Fins will maybe get easier over time but by the time they release 7 star versions of those champs, rewards will be outdated. So I don't see why you're involving the future of this game when only the challenge would be a proof of an healthy game but not the rewards.
    Because the players doing it then won't think the rewards are outdated.

    f the rewards to the person doing them, because we all value rewards differently.

    If rewards actually became outdated like you imply they do, that would imply that absolutely no one would be doing Abyss anymore. The rewards are outdated. Who would want outdated rewards? Except I'm pretty sure people still do the Abyss. It isn't the sexy end game content it used to be, but people still do it.
    You're pretty sure ?
    I'm absolutely sure. I'm not guessing about something, nor am I logically deducing something. I know because all I have to do is observe the actual game. I'm describing what happens now, not extrapolating what might happen in the future.
    xLunatiXx said:

    You need to be careful with data. Seeing people attempting content doesn't mean they enjoy doing it. There's nothing to measure game enjoyment. Many people will do it cause they'll feel forced to do it, to keep up etc. And I think Kabam is forgetting it these days. All for the sake of data.

    That's true, but that's also normalizable. People do that now. When you compare people doing these challenges against prior data of people doing other challenge content, there's no reason to believe that the distribution of people doing this content out of spite is far outside the aggregate range of such players across all other content.

    I probably should not have said "exact." What I should have said, but oversimplified, was that the data for this content can be compared to the player distribution curves across statistical dimensionalities to determine if the overall shape of the content execution data is consistent with other content. As an old fuddy duddy, I would do that analysis in phase space (because I've done it before for other game difficulty analysis) but these days it would probably be done with machine learning (which ultimately does the same thing but in network form).

    Nowhere in the data does the game measure happiness, nor can it. It can measure engagement which is a reasonable proxy, but not only can the game not measure happiness, I'm not even sure it should. There are a lot of environments where asking "how happy are you" isn't the best metric. You wouldn't measure a fitness instructor necessarily in that way. Or a school teacher. And with video games, it is often the case that what people say would make them happy is not what they gravitate towards in terms of their time or money.

    People want to win. But they don't value easy wins. They hate losing, but take away losing and the wins quickly become meaningless. But almost no one is actually self aware enough to ask for losses just to make their wins worth it. That's why the whole "if people want challenges they can just do Labyrinth with 3* champs" thing doesn't work. Most people cannot create challenges for themselves in that way. They need someone else to place the pressure on them, so they can apply all their efforts towards overcoming it.

    So even if you could measure happiness perfectly, I'm not sure it would even be a useful metric in the context of challenging content. What people want is to be a hero. What they need is a villain.
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    BendyBendy Posts: 3,720 ★★★★★
    So i only did the starky one and others id probs wait on new stars or when others get a buff to make it more manageable zemo i might do but only when a 7 as i dont play him never will so will get to it when i deem the thing good just like ive done with lab 4 challenges and the abyss stuff ive just been waiting on higher star of the requirements
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    Grootman1294Grootman1294 Posts: 871 ★★★★
    Lagacy had some pretty fair challenges. Doing it with sparky was fairly cheap and it was quite fun as well to get through the Kang's.

    The other ones look kinda ridiculous, especially the jabari tigra challenge and the zemo one. Really not looking forward to those
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    Sir_GlobalotSir_Globalot Posts: 169 ★★
    Zuko_ILC said:

    The problem with this content is that these challenges are gated by champions. At least lags challenge you get the champ. Then if you have them you have to waste precious rank up materials so you aren't spending a lot of money to complete it.

    There was an easy solution. Each one has 3 challenges. 1st is more of a warm up and you get the champ to play it like lags challenge. That gives you the champs for 2nd. Then 2nd gives you what you need for the 3rd. Special rank up gem for only those champs needed.

    This way you aren't wasting materials and can actually play the content. I never completed the 4* challenge and never will. Rewards aren't worth it now that I waited so long so no real point.

    I don't mind difficult content and my roster can handle this content. But most people don't come close to my roster. I feel bad for the majority of the player base that might not have the champs to even attempt this in 2 years.

    This is a very good point. I've never tackled Abyss before because I never thought I'd have the team or enough units/revives, but when Necro came out, I took my best champs and gave it a go. When that didn't work, I used Aegon. Point is, I had the option of doing Necro how I saw fit, using champs I liked that were good for the nodes. Using a champ like Zemo, or Mojo, to tackle 15-18 fights in a row that they weren't designed for isn't just challenging, it's boring. Add frustration on top, and it's not something most people will want to "aim for."
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    ErcarretErcarret Posts: 2,787 ★★★★★
    Honestly, I think all of them look pretty fun. However, I don't anticipate to complete them in a similar timeframe.

    When it comes to Lagacy's challenges, I can probably knock them out during the weekend. My biggest hurdle is that I don't enjoy playing Starky at all and therefore haven't used him since my 5* days. However, I have my 5* at r5 and I ascended him when Lags said we'd need him. So I'm all set and don't anticipate it to be too difficult.

    For KarateMike's challenges, I both need to build up a stash of revives and rank up some champions since I don't have any of the Avengers ranked up. Luckily I have two of them as 7*, which should help, but I still need to take up Black Widow and Thor from r1 to at least r4 as well as put some sigs into them. This whole process will likely take a while, especially since my revives will go to Necropolis and WoW in the near future.

    As for Fintech's challenges, well, I won't be doing them anytime soon. I'm kind of excited about both of them since I enjoy playing all three champions (especially Tigra and Mojo, who were both my favorite champions a few years ago), but I'm just not at a place where I can complete any of the challenges at the moment. I need to either 6r5 or 7r2 each champion at least, and build up a really sizeable potion and revive stash. I don't anticipate to be done with (or even really trying) either of them before the summer.

    But I'm not as mad at them as some people seem to be.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,822 Guardian
    Crcrcrc said:

    Would you like to drop a source on your “data” or are you just guessing for fun? You can use a lot of words and elegant sentence structures and still make stuff up and it doesn’t really make it accurate.

    When I say I am looking at the game, I am literally looking at the game. I see a lower tier game that still exists, and still has a functioning resource economy that includes so-called outdated rewards. I don't know how to produce a spreadsheet of data that somehow mathematically proves that things like, say, 5* Nexus crystals are still active in the lower game despite being "outdated." That would seem to be a plain observation.

    The only "data" I have that directly represents game economy details other than what can be observed directly by any player are not things I believe I can share. I will say that it has been stated by the devs that there has never been an in-game offer that no one has purchased, and that include both unit offers and cash offers. And we don't need to trust the devs word on that one, because it is basic monetization 101 that such offers are carefully monitored and tweaked over time when interest in them wanes. No offer would survive unchanged long enough to have no one buy it. So that's a priori proof that lots of the rewards people claim are outdated are things actual spenders in the game are actually buying with literal cash, which would be another element of proof that the notion that rewards get "outdated" in a global sense is at the very least highly flawed if not outright false.

    Don't take my word for it, don't trust anything the devs say about it either. Find any neutral uninterested thirty party game economy designer, and ask them how reward economy tiering works, how progress segmentation works, how reward curves are updated and how reward budgets are managed, and you're going to get the same answers, because none of this is novel.

    In any event, this is only interesting for people who find game economy design interesting. The bottom line is the content is optional content, so the rewards themselves are not designed to be proportional to the difficulty. They are nice incentives only (in general, the one exception being the KG deathless piece which only requires doing one challenge and it can be the easiest one for the player). If people find the rewards insufficient incentive to do the content, then it is optional and thus working as intended if some players decide not to do them. That is what optional means.
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    jcphillips7jcphillips7 Posts: 1,099 ★★★
    Well Lagacy’s are all wrapped up. Good challenge!

    Dont think I’ll be attempting the other 4 quite so soon. Maybe after WoW, 8.4 release, post-Spring Cleaning.
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