General Game Feedback [Merged Threads]

Pulyaman · May 2020

GroundedWisdom said:

Pulyaman said:

GroundedWisdom said:

DNA3000 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
If someone wants to challenge what I've said, by all means. If they want to ignore the points I made based on where I'm at in the game, that is for lack of a better term, ignorant.
I would like to challenge what you said about attackers. What specific observations about the attackers players bring into war lead you to this assertion. Since the topic of discussion was how changes to Defense Tactics would affect attacker-side diversity choices, please take me through your thought process, step by step, so I can see what the foundation of that conjecture is.
I've been playing the game long enough to know what takes place. I've already broken down what happens. The highest on the Attack end, or the Champs that have the best Regen capabilities, are used. Besides my own observations on who Players gravitate towards using, which is visible in War, I've also participated in many discussions over the years which people have suggested and asked for Attack Diversity because it's the same Attackers being used that make Defense monotonous. In fact, I've always made the point that Attack Diversity was never an issue because people could use whoever they chose. Although they didn't. It was whoever people told them was the best to use. In fact, I just made a point this week that Kingpin was an option for Aegis because of Unstoppable Heavy. To which people adamantly shot down because that's "not who you use for that". Do some use whoever they want? Sure. The majority use the same Champs that are used, and I'd conjecture that they have the data on that themselves. Which is why they're introducing ways to mix it up. To be honest, for the most part, people don't just use different choices. They either use the most popular heavy hitters, or the counter that they're told to use. Now that Attack Diversity seems to be a thing, I feel it's pertinent to point out that those opposing it aren't acknowledging the fact that people use the same Champs regardless. Difference is, it's based on popularity and not necessity.
The way you started the post reminded me of a certain president.lol. But i digress. The reason for the highest attack champs in attack is because the defence is too stacked with 5/65 and rank 2 or rank 3 6 star champs. Add physical resistance nodes, crit resist nodes and inbuilt abilities like Protection means if you don't want to time out, you need to bring high attack champs and boost them. Many have explained about flow tactics and very little options and I don't want to go into that again. I run path 9 in war and i face aegis heavy and confusion in first two section. Kingpin is bad choice to use in aegis heavy, with that logic Man thing is a good option because his heavy has unstoppable too. But the main reason Kingpin is a bad champ because his damage is very low, if you run into a korg or Mordo, I am sure you can get him down eventually, But the cost is too high in terms of potions. I don't know many people who would bring a regen champ to aw attack. Because we want fights to end quickly. Unlike aq, timeout costs my alliance a bonus. the champs i bring to attack team are Omega red, Caiw, Venom, Ghost, Wasp, Doom, Blade. There you go, six champs that i can bring to counter depending on my path. All are heavy hitters, I love playing with sentinel, but to ramp him up every fight and risk timeout is not something I am going to do
I have Sentinel over 100 Sig. Ramps up pretty nicely. As for Kingpin, I use him because I don't have Man-Thing as a 5*. He works. I can get 2 Heavies off and start taking down Damage easier than fighting with the AI which pretty much automatically Blocks most Heavies unless they follow a Parry or Stun. To me, that's more valuable than hitting the hardest. In combination with the DoT from the L1 and hits, they go down. Mordo isn't a problem. My point with that was there are other options but people are set in their ways with Champs. Always the same ones everyone else recommends.

Interesting, I had to check the nodes on T6 wars. You are not considering the health and attack boost the T1-T5 wars get from the local nodes. The fact that you said you would use Man thing makes me believe that you don't understand the champ. His damage is very low. In a timed fight, it is very easy to time out with him. I am not saying we will always time out. But no one wants to risk it because alliance war is a competition. You don't try stuff during the competition.
If your goal is to win a war, we automatically need to diversify our attack, We have people bringing counters for boss and miniboss. That's how we win a war. In our bg, I have seen at least 20 different attackers. If you want 30 different champs for 1 single bg, thats not happening

Octoberstack · May 2020

GroundedWisdom said:

Octoberstack said:

GroundedWisdom said:

DNA3000 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

DNA3000 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

UmbertoDelRio said:
Defense tactics are supposed to encourage diversity is honestly the funniest sh*t I've heard today.

But it gets even better, because in the near future even offensive champs will benefit from them, meaning our offensive options will also become less diversity encouraging.

What kind of a joke even is that? Diversity literally becomes a complete non-factor in tier 5+. Not having defense tactics is what encourages diversity.

By the way we tanked our first war this season. And surprisingly enough, our opponent also only places a half-a**ed defense and only went for the bosses.

I couldn't help myself and still placed my 5/65 mojo as a boss in bg1 amongst mostly 1-2* champs. He still got 26 kills.
When has diversity ever been an issue for Offense? People use the same Champs regardless, overall. If anything, it will encourage more diversity. Unless I'm playing another game where Corvus isn't in every Attack Team.
This would be a case where I am compelled to say it before anyone else does: if you aren't playing the game at a level where defense tactics is in play, or higher tier AW in general, you really cannot have any idea how the DT changes will affect the attacker and defender meta. *I* haven't been in tier 5/6 in a long enough period of time that I can only hazard a guess myself.

Also, Corvus is path-specific in war, even in intermediate tiers. If you're on a path where you aren't going to get any charges, he's not always going to be the best choice. Or sometimes even a good choice. Can anyone tell me if Corvus is a good choice for a map full of Dooms? Because I don't know how to do a path with multiple Dooms without Void or CapIW, honestly.
I may respect your output, but I have the same response I do to anyone else that says it. Calling people out for where they're at in the game is not a reasonable rebuttal to points made. It's a low-hat response that just ignores what someone says. Of all the points you've made, I still don't understand why you support that behavior.
Because there's a difference between preference and judgment. If someone has a general point of view for which specific game experience is unnecessary, pointing out their game experience is unjustifiably prejudicial. But when someone is making a judgment that requires knowledge or experience or both, it is reasonable to question if that person has the requisite experience for their judgment to be credible.

Everyone has the right to express any opinion, however random, about any game topic they want. But that doesn't mean every opinion is equally credible. There's a huge difference between, say, commenting on the difficulty of the Champion fight based on watching a video of someone fighting him and actually fighting him. And when someone expresses an opinion about something, I generally want to know why they formulated that opinion, what its foundation is. I expect the same when anyone else reads my opinions. Without foundation, I shouldn't expect anyone else to give any of my opinions a second thought, and I assess other people's opinions the same way. There has to be a reason to respect the opinion, be it knowledge, careful analysis, direct experience, or all three.

It is no more calling out someone for their game progress to ask if they have any experience with the content they claim to be able to judge than it is calling out someone who claims to be able judge how difficult brain surgery is by asking them if they actually have any surgical experience whatsoever. Whenever I speak on any issue, I fully disclose my direct experience, if any, with that issue. And I'm suspicious about anyone who isn't willing to do likewise.
Offering it is a choice. Calling people out on it is not a respectful way to communicate. Especially when it's done with the absence of acknowledging the points they've made. If someone wants to challenge what I've said, by all means. If they want to ignore the points I made based on where I'm at in the game, that is for lack of a better term, ignorant.
Except in this scenario, people aren’t ignoring the points you’ve made based on your progression - they’re simply questioning the credibility of your opinions, and your capacity to fully weigh in on the issues at hand, due to the fact that you have yet to experience as much of the game as many here. Their suspicions are valid - even if you choose to see it as ignorance and adopt a victim’s mentality.
No. It's just plain calling out. I made the point that people have a tendency to gravitate towards the use of the same Attackers in this game. That turned into calling me out for not being in Tier 5 and up. The OP then contradicted themselves by saying people in Tier 6, which I'm in, use a variety of Attackers, and I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about because they're stuck using the same Attackers with Flow in 1-5. One contradiction after another. The only purpose of that is to divert what I'm saying by using where I'm at in the game. That's not at all a healthy way to discuss points. Not at all. I'm not going to put Jeffree Star Velour on a pig.

I disagree, it’s not quite as black and white as that. Just because you don’t like the having your credibility questioned doesn’t make it an unhealthy way to discuss points. Everyone is at perfect liberty to question your capacity to weigh in on the matters at hand. Similar to how an astronaut is allowed to question the claims and expectations of a trainee who has yet to travel past the stratosphere. An inflated analogy, undoubtedly - but you get the picture, I’m sure.

The simple fact that you continue to insist that people ‘tend to gravitate towards the use of the same Attackers in the game’ is enough to tell most people here that your experience within the game is incomplete - as this simply isn’t the case in higher level AW, Questing, or even AQ. There’s inherently nothing wrong with people then mentioning this fact, or probing further.

I can see why you might think that people are just ‘calling you out’ and ganging up on you - but your (often inexplicable) conversational approach here tends to invite a similar manner of discourse. The fix to that might be within your own hands, even if you won’t admit it.

Ambjony · May 2020

First of all, I'd like to thank Kabam to at least communicate and implement few changes. I understand some of them are not easy to implement. However, It's pretty disappointing.

Changes in AW or AQ may be good, and I see the work behind some of that but it's like putting some nice cherrys to a burnt cake. You miss the main point. As it has been tons of times previously stated:

- Act 6. Most players are stuck there. Maybe the three next points will help sort that out, but not necesarilly. Main point of the game is history mode, make it a challenge but affordable in a progression line not a exponential curve.

- Cavalier Monthly Quest. I understand that you're plannin on it, and that's great. It's hard for me to believe that no one has ever thought on it since you create that title, but better late than never. I get that this can take 2-3 months to implement. Prizes should help clear act 6 content.

- Champions. Nexus crystals are easy to implement, from time to time you sell them for real money, you can make them available for shards in short term. Should be no big deal if you were willing to do it.

- Arena prizes need to be updated. This shouldn't be difficult to address but again It seems you don't plan on it.

- Variants. I'm happy to hear you're releasin a 5th one. I think one variant every 3-4 months should be easy to make and playerbase love them.

I get that Kabam's goal is to make money, as any company. I consider myself f2p player here as I only bought 1$ crystal few years ago. In other games I play, they milk whales as you do but they also make cheap offers for people like me every now and then. And I end up spending...

Thecurler · May 2020

I don't know how feasible this is but what about creating forum sections for players at a certain progression level to post in.

For example a thread for T1-T3 war only accessible to players in those tiers. An Act 6 and beyond thread etc etc.

Leave it open for anyone to view so they can understand what is being discussed.

Being completely honest, this forum can be a really frustrating place.
Surely the feedback you guys have received proves a massive proportion of mid to end game players aren't happy with the state of the game.
They come to the forum and it becomes an even more frustrating experience because people who don't understand the issues always take the polar opposite position and labour that position over and over again.

Personally I don't understand the moderation policy as it stands. Of course I understand why some posts are removed but I regularly see what appear to be legitimate posts deleted but many off topic provocative posts remain untouched. I'm a frequent visitor to the forum but beginning to question why, because it's mostly a negative experience.

I hope this post is received in the constructive manner it is intended.

winterthur · May 2020

Thecurler said:
I don't know how feasible this is but what about creating forum sections for players at a certain progression level to post in.

For example a thread for T1-T3 war only accessible to players in those tiers. An Act 6 and beyond thread etc etc.

Leave it open for anyone to view so they can understand what is being discussed.

When this current forum replaced the previous, the user was to linked the same id here with the game id. This was supposed to allow different things etc etc but I don't know why it did not take flight.

DrZola · May 2020

Haji_Saab said:
I have seen people suggest lowering Act 6 difficulty so people can follow the story line. I think that option is already there as you only need one run through to get the story. There are no additional dialogues for exploration. So, we can say that completion is easy mode and exploration is hard mode for Act 6.

In that aspect, only 6.2.2 and 6.2.6 bosses are restrictive and should be looked into. The whole discussion around gates and niche paths and all that go away if you are only playing for the story line.

Not an unreasonable approach—but I might add Acid Wash Mysterio as a potential boss who could use a tune-up because of restrictiveness.

Dr. Zola

DrZola · May 2020

Haji_Saab said:

DrZola said:

Haji_Saab said:
I have seen people suggest lowering Act 6 difficulty so people can follow the story line. I think that option is already there as you only need one run through to get the story. There are no additional dialogues for exploration. So, we can say that completion is easy mode and exploration is hard mode for Act 6.

In that aspect, only 6.2.2 and 6.2.6 bosses are restrictive and should be looked into. The whole discussion around gates and niche paths and all that go away if you are only playing for the story line.
Not an unreasonable approach—but I might add Acid Wash Mysterio as a potential boss who could use a tune-up because of restrictiveness.

Dr. Zola
Acid Wash Mysterio is an annoying fight but he is not the boss and can be avoided if not going for the exploration.

Agh...forgot he wasn’t boss. You’re correct that is a niche fight that can be avoided.

Dr. Zola

arsjum · May 2020

DrZola said:

Haji_Saab said:
I have seen people suggest lowering Act 6 difficulty so people can follow the story line. I think that option is already there as you only need one run through to get the story. There are no additional dialogues for exploration. So, we can say that completion is easy mode and exploration is hard mode for Act 6.

In that aspect, only 6.2.2 and 6.2.6 bosses are restrictive and should be looked into. The whole discussion around gates and niche paths and all that go away if you are only playing for the story line.
Not an unreasonable approach—but I might add Acid Wash Mysterio as a potential boss who could use a tune-up because of restrictiveness.

Dr. Zola

Acid Wash Mysterio actually not as bad of a fight as everyone says. It is tedious if you don't have a high ranked Man-Thing or King Groot but a number of hard hitting damage dealers can solo that fight. I myself have posted a solo with r5 SL and r5 Guillotine 2099 on my YouTube channel to show it can be done (no boosts and no suicides in both fights). I've seen others solo him with Nick Fury and Proxima. Blade with danger sense can do it too because he can simultaneously chip away Mysterio's health and regenerate.

That said, I won't fuss over it if Kabam decides to tone it down a little or gives more options to increase your damage output. For example, you deal -90% less damage unless x but you deal x2 damage if you do y.

Mcord11758 · May 2020

Haji_Saab said:
I have seen people suggest lowering Act 6 difficulty so people can follow the story line. I think that option is already there as you only need one run through to get the story. There are no additional dialogues for exploration. So, we can say that completion is easy mode and exploration is hard mode for Act 6.

In that aspect, only 6.2.2 and 6.2.6 bosses are restrictive and should be looked into. The whole discussion around gates and niche paths and all that go away if you are only playing for the story line.

I don’t read the story anyway but imo main story arc content should be accessible to all. I don’t mean that a new player can just breeze through but as created the vast majority of the people who play this game will never complete act 6. So that means act 7 as well and so on and so forth. So future story content is the relatively meaningless to a very large percentage of people who play the game. Idk, seems pretty backwards to me

GroundedWisdom · May 2020

Pulyaman said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Pulyaman said:

GroundedWisdom said:

DNA3000 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
If someone wants to challenge what I've said, by all means. If they want to ignore the points I made based on where I'm at in the game, that is for lack of a better term, ignorant.
I would like to challenge what you said about attackers. What specific observations about the attackers players bring into war lead you to this assertion. Since the topic of discussion was how changes to Defense Tactics would affect attacker-side diversity choices, please take me through your thought process, step by step, so I can see what the foundation of that conjecture is.
I've been playing the game long enough to know what takes place. I've already broken down what happens. The highest on the Attack end, or the Champs that have the best Regen capabilities, are used. Besides my own observations on who Players gravitate towards using, which is visible in War, I've also participated in many discussions over the years which people have suggested and asked for Attack Diversity because it's the same Attackers being used that make Defense monotonous. In fact, I've always made the point that Attack Diversity was never an issue because people could use whoever they chose. Although they didn't. It was whoever people told them was the best to use. In fact, I just made a point this week that Kingpin was an option for Aegis because of Unstoppable Heavy. To which people adamantly shot down because that's "not who you use for that". Do some use whoever they want? Sure. The majority use the same Champs that are used, and I'd conjecture that they have the data on that themselves. Which is why they're introducing ways to mix it up. To be honest, for the most part, people don't just use different choices. They either use the most popular heavy hitters, or the counter that they're told to use. Now that Attack Diversity seems to be a thing, I feel it's pertinent to point out that those opposing it aren't acknowledging the fact that people use the same Champs regardless. Difference is, it's based on popularity and not necessity.
The way you started the post reminded me of a certain president.lol. But i digress. The reason for the highest attack champs in attack is because the defence is too stacked with 5/65 and rank 2 or rank 3 6 star champs. Add physical resistance nodes, crit resist nodes and inbuilt abilities like Protection means if you don't want to time out, you need to bring high attack champs and boost them. Many have explained about flow tactics and very little options and I don't want to go into that again. I run path 9 in war and i face aegis heavy and confusion in first two section. Kingpin is bad choice to use in aegis heavy, with that logic Man thing is a good option because his heavy has unstoppable too. But the main reason Kingpin is a bad champ because his damage is very low, if you run into a korg or Mordo, I am sure you can get him down eventually, But the cost is too high in terms of potions. I don't know many people who would bring a regen champ to aw attack. Because we want fights to end quickly. Unlike aq, timeout costs my alliance a bonus. the champs i bring to attack team are Omega red, Caiw, Venom, Ghost, Wasp, Doom, Blade. There you go, six champs that i can bring to counter depending on my path. All are heavy hitters, I love playing with sentinel, but to ramp him up every fight and risk timeout is not something I am going to do
I have Sentinel over 100 Sig. Ramps up pretty nicely. As for Kingpin, I use him because I don't have Man-Thing as a 5*. He works. I can get 2 Heavies off and start taking down Damage easier than fighting with the AI which pretty much automatically Blocks most Heavies unless they follow a Parry or Stun. To me, that's more valuable than hitting the hardest. In combination with the DoT from the L1 and hits, they go down. Mordo isn't a problem. My point with that was there are other options but people are set in their ways with Champs. Always the same ones everyone else recommends.
Interesting, I had to check the nodes on T6 wars. You are not considering the health and attack boost the T1-T5 wars get from the local nodes. The fact that you said you would use Man thing makes me believe that you don't understand the champ. His damage is very low. In a timed fight, it is very easy to time out with him. I am not saying we will always time out. But no one wants to risk it because alliance war is a competition. You don't try stuff during the competition.
If your goal is to win a war, we automatically need to diversify our attack, We have people bringing counters for boss and miniboss. That's how we win a war. In our bg, I have seen at least 20 different attackers. If you want 30 different champs for 1 single bg, thats not happening

You suggested Man-Thing. That's why I referenced him. He wouldn't be my first choice. I use KP. He works for me. You can see what I'm saying by the reactions that have followed. People use whoever others tell them is the best. I don't follow suit. The second someone mentions an option outside of what everyone else uses.....dog pile.

Peteyaces_72 · May 2020

I’ve done completion of Act 6 and Abyss. I have a big roster and have played the game for a very long time. Looking through all the nodes in Act 6, I find them exhausting and uninteresting. I just straight up don’t want to do it and I think Act 6 will be the first content I don’t full explore simply because of this.

I decided to make another account, free to play, just to see if it is the game I’m bored with. I have to say, I’m having so much fun on my second account. I’ve done completion through Act 3, just starting act 4, and I’m having a blast. My 1st 4* pull was Black Panther and I’ve had fun with him going through fights. I’ve done some of the red rift rooms against enemies with much higher PI levels and it’s been fun too. Kind of like a lol fight without the evade given that I’m using a r1 4*.

For me it is the crazy node combinations and niche fights that are making the game not interesting for me on the main account. I just straight up don’t want to do it because it isn’t fun for me. I like to be challenged but don’t find extremely niche nodes or nodes that are so punishing that it’s annoying rather than challenging.

Either way, I’m glad I started a new account to relive why I originally fell in love with this game

Mcord11758 · May 2020

Peteyaces_72 said:
I’ve done completion of Act 6 and Abyss. I have a big roster and have played the game for a very long time. Looking through all the nodes in Act 6, I find them exhausting and uninteresting. I just straight up don’t want to do it and I think Act 6 will be the first content I don’t full explore simply because of this.

I decided to make another account, free to play, just to see if it is the game I’m bored with. I have to say, I’m having so much fun on my second account. I’ve done completion through Act 3, just starting act 4, and I’m having a blast. My 1st 4* pull was Black Panther and I’ve had fun with him going through fights. I’ve done some of the red rift rooms against enemies with much higher PI levels and it’s been fun too. Kind of like a lol fight without the evade given that I’m using a r1 4*.

For me it is the crazy node combinations and niche fights that are making the game not interesting for me on the main account. I just straight up don’t want to do it because it isn’t fun for me. I like to be challenged but don’t find extremely niche nodes or nodes that are so punishing that it’s annoying rather than challenging.

Either way, I’m glad I started a new account to relive why I originally fell in love with this game

I really agree with this. The game is so much fun if you start back over from the beginning. I have done it twice back up to uncollected. The direction of content in this game has lost imagination, and the sense of fun and accomplishment for me. When I completed act 6 I felt violated more than happy. When I originally beat maestro for the first time in act 4 the feeling was much different

Apocalypse189 · May 2020

Ok so now we know a little bit of what’s coming. My concern now switches to the rewards element of the game, mainly alliance events (not AQ/AW)

Solo Events are imo outdated, SA rewards are not viable in the current state of the game and other events needs minor update

GroundedWisdom · May 2020

Apocalypse189 said:
Ok so now we know a little bit of what’s coming. My concern now switches to the rewards element of the game, mainly alliance events (not AQ/AW)

Solo Events are imo outdated, SA rewards are not viable in the current state of the game and other events needs minor update

I would say the Solo Crystals could be scaled to progression levels at some point. Uncollected, Cavalier.

TheInfinty · May 2020

Keonex said:
KABAM definitely NOT listening yo what we want

3 month plan is laughable

what we WANT is this

Cavalier level added to monthly event quest

Variants released every 2 to 3 months

New 6* arena its time for Arena to he revamped and an actual arena to win 6*s

6*s added to incursion crystals

6* UC added to loyalty store

6* Punisher added to New Cavalier level arena crystals

ability to sell t4cc for t5cc shards

updated Solo events

increased Inventory across the board especially more revives and potions capacity

Cavalier crystals should NoT have 3*s

Who the hell wants a 6 star punisher? And I highly doubt the team can do variants in 2-3 months I think 4-5 is the average but 9 months since the last variant is a little wack

H3t3r · May 2020

UmbertoDelRio said:
By the way, team, I had to long term members announce that they'll be taking a longer break from the game today.

You deleting our treasury without any kind of appropriate notification and without appropriate compensation was the last straw for them. Those two invested a lot into our treasuy over the time they've been here, so that we'll be stacked for whenever we started playing map 6 more regularly.

And they weren't the only ones who donated a lot and they aren't the only ones extremely p*ssed about this.

What you've done there was so shortsighted, so incompetent, so detached from the community, it almost feels as if this thread never even existed.

Wait they deleted everyones treasury?

TheInfinty · May 2020

H3t3r said:

UmbertoDelRio said:
By the way, team, I had to long term members announce that they'll be taking a longer break from the game today.

You deleting our treasury without any kind of appropriate notification and without appropriate compensation was the last straw for them. Those two invested a lot into our treasuy over the time they've been here, so that we'll be stacked for whenever we started playing map 6 more regularly.

And they weren't the only ones who donated a lot and they aren't the only ones extremely p*ssed about this.

What you've done there was so shortsighted, so incompetent, so detached from the community, it almost feels as if this thread never even existed.
Wait they deleted everyones treasury?

Man they could have at least told us. I feel like they could have maybe given out three treasury rewards to the alliance? I don’t know if that sounds stupid or not but it’s something

H3t3r · May 2020

UmbertoDelRio said:

H3t3r said:

UmbertoDelRio said:
By the way, team, I had to long term members announce that they'll be taking a longer break from the game today.

You deleting our treasury without any kind of appropriate notification and without appropriate compensation was the last straw for them. Those two invested a lot into our treasuy over the time they've been here, so that we'll be stacked for whenever we started playing map 6 more regularly.

And they weren't the only ones who donated a lot and they aren't the only ones extremely p*ssed about this.

What you've done there was so shortsighted, so incompetent, so detached from the community, it almost feels as if this thread never even existed.
Wait they deleted everyones treasury?
Yup, go check. It's all gone, all empty. They deleted everyone's treasury without appropriate communication before the fact in order to change the system used for alliance costs (see aq tickets thread).

And to add to that shortsighted and awful decision they chose to establish a completely arbitrary 5 months cutoff for compensating donations with aq tickets.

If your alliance had a completely stacked treasury, all gathered through fair gameplay and over years, then most of that is gone for good now.

I wouldn't know as i am alliance free. But that bs

TheInfinty · May 2020

As a lower level player the treasury means less to me but I am quite annoyed still that they just got rid of the resources of the treasury. My alliance would have one BG that ran Map 5 i still donated even though I wouldn’t participate in Map 5 and just to see all the treasury stuff go down the drain is dumb they should have just given back the resources.

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