I hate to say this, but SoP’s Rewards to Difficulty ratio is way too high

DNA3000 · July 2021

Nigelthornberry said:

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:
TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.
Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.
All games have to have an end goal that’s tough to achieve. Especially in a game like this with hundreds of hours of content, I would never expect everyone to have the final title. It’s much more likely for it to be available to only a tiny group at the top being so difficult to achieve.
All finite games have to have an end goal that is tough to achieve. But most progressional games as a service do not. No PvE-focused one ever does. Games that transition from PvE progress to PvP end game can have a final top tier progressional title, because the game eventually abandons PvE progress altogether and does something completely different. But all games that remain PvE-progressional keep extending the progress ladder upward. The only time there's a final last progressional tier is when the game shuts down or goes into permanent maintenance mode and the devs stop making progressional tiers.
That’s actually an odd way of thinking of it because progressional games almost always have a small group in the final area, whereas finite games always have nearly everyone in the endgame.
That's completely orthogonal. The number of players in whatever happens to be the highest progressional tier tends to be relatively small at the time that tier opens but the specific reason for making new progressional tiers is when the number of players in that tier becomes large enough to support a bifurcation.

I don't think you mean the same thing I mean when I talk about "finite games." Everyone isn't in the end game in a finite game. Everyone *leaves* when they reach the end of a finite game, because at that point the game is over. If you want players to stick around, there has to be something to do. If they are not progressing upwards, because there's no more progress, they have to be doing something else productive. The most common thing people do in games where progress stops is shift to PvP, where competition replaces content-driven progress. That is not a finite game. That is a game that replaces content-driven progress with competition ladders.

If you have a game that has a fixed finite number of progressional tiers, and you declare the top one to be the "elite tier" that you don't expect most players to ever achieve, then for the vast majority of your players this tier doesn't really exist. The game becomes a game with N-1 progressional tiers. And if the end game only exists at the top tier, then everyone else runs out of things to do eventually and quits. The alternative is to make two different end games, one for the elite players and a separate one for everyone else. That's possible, but in my opinion unless you're dealing with a dev team full of creative savants, it is also completely dumb.

I can say one thing with absolute certainty: this game is not that kind of game. The progressional tiers that the progress titles demarcate are all true progressional tiers. They are intended for the playerbase to progress through. None of them are, or ever were intended to be "elite titles" that represented the final goal of the game. If you think this game is supposed to have such a thing, I'm afraid you're never going to see such a thing in the game. Except maybe when the game finally dies.
i admire the use of stupidly long comments to sound smart, but this point makes no sense and this comment is redundant

If it doesn't make sense, it can't be redundant. And if it doesn't make sense to you, that's primarily because the topic exceeds your knowledge. This is a conversation I've had with dozens of game designers, including ours. Either all of all of us are randomly enjoying a fugue state, or more likely you're just ignorant.

Crcrcrc · July 2021

DNA3000 said:

Nigelthornberry said:

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:
TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.
Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.
All games have to have an end goal that’s tough to achieve. Especially in a game like this with hundreds of hours of content, I would never expect everyone to have the final title. It’s much more likely for it to be available to only a tiny group at the top being so difficult to achieve.
All finite games have to have an end goal that is tough to achieve. But most progressional games as a service do not. No PvE-focused one ever does. Games that transition from PvE progress to PvP end game can have a final top tier progressional title, because the game eventually abandons PvE progress altogether and does something completely different. But all games that remain PvE-progressional keep extending the progress ladder upward. The only time there's a final last progressional tier is when the game shuts down or goes into permanent maintenance mode and the devs stop making progressional tiers.
That’s actually an odd way of thinking of it because progressional games almost always have a small group in the final area, whereas finite games always have nearly everyone in the endgame.
That's completely orthogonal. The number of players in whatever happens to be the highest progressional tier tends to be relatively small at the time that tier opens but the specific reason for making new progressional tiers is when the number of players in that tier becomes large enough to support a bifurcation.

I don't think you mean the same thing I mean when I talk about "finite games." Everyone isn't in the end game in a finite game. Everyone *leaves* when they reach the end of a finite game, because at that point the game is over. If you want players to stick around, there has to be something to do. If they are not progressing upwards, because there's no more progress, they have to be doing something else productive. The most common thing people do in games where progress stops is shift to PvP, where competition replaces content-driven progress. That is not a finite game. That is a game that replaces content-driven progress with competition ladders.

If you have a game that has a fixed finite number of progressional tiers, and you declare the top one to be the "elite tier" that you don't expect most players to ever achieve, then for the vast majority of your players this tier doesn't really exist. The game becomes a game with N-1 progressional tiers. And if the end game only exists at the top tier, then everyone else runs out of things to do eventually and quits. The alternative is to make two different end games, one for the elite players and a separate one for everyone else. That's possible, but in my opinion unless you're dealing with a dev team full of creative savants, it is also completely dumb.

I can say one thing with absolute certainty: this game is not that kind of game. The progressional tiers that the progress titles demarcate are all true progressional tiers. They are intended for the playerbase to progress through. None of them are, or ever were intended to be "elite titles" that represented the final goal of the game. If you think this game is supposed to have such a thing, I'm afraid you're never going to see such a thing in the game. Except maybe when the game finally dies.
i admire the use of stupidly long comments to sound smart, but this point makes no sense and this comment is redundant
If it doesn't make sense, it can't be redundant. And if it doesn't make sense to you, that's primarily because the topic exceeds your knowledge. This is a conversation I've had with dozens of game designers, including ours. Either all of all of us are randomly enjoying a fugue state, or more likely you're just ignorant.

Tbf, it was an incredibly long comment to just say that this game is supposed to have a lot of people in the top tier…

DNA3000 · July 2021

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

Nigelthornberry said:

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

Crcrcrc said:

DNA3000 said:

ChaosMax1012 said:
TB is CAV all over again. Nerfed 6.1 into a clown fest where anyone can grab CAV.
Cavalier and Thronebreaker are progressional titles. By definition, they have to be things most players can eventually achieve. They aren't elite titles meant for only the absolute top players. Such things only exist outside of the progression path of the game.

There's never going to be a progression title that only elite players can achieve. If the only players who could qualify for it were the tiny wedge of players at the very top, there would not be enough players to justify the work to create that progression title.
All games have to have an end goal that’s tough to achieve. Especially in a game like this with hundreds of hours of content, I would never expect everyone to have the final title. It’s much more likely for it to be available to only a tiny group at the top being so difficult to achieve.
All finite games have to have an end goal that is tough to achieve. But most progressional games as a service do not. No PvE-focused one ever does. Games that transition from PvE progress to PvP end game can have a final top tier progressional title, because the game eventually abandons PvE progress altogether and does something completely different. But all games that remain PvE-progressional keep extending the progress ladder upward. The only time there's a final last progressional tier is when the game shuts down or goes into permanent maintenance mode and the devs stop making progressional tiers.
That’s actually an odd way of thinking of it because progressional games almost always have a small group in the final area, whereas finite games always have nearly everyone in the endgame.
That's completely orthogonal. The number of players in whatever happens to be the highest progressional tier tends to be relatively small at the time that tier opens but the specific reason for making new progressional tiers is when the number of players in that tier becomes large enough to support a bifurcation.

I don't think you mean the same thing I mean when I talk about "finite games." Everyone isn't in the end game in a finite game. Everyone *leaves* when they reach the end of a finite game, because at that point the game is over. If you want players to stick around, there has to be something to do. If they are not progressing upwards, because there's no more progress, they have to be doing something else productive. The most common thing people do in games where progress stops is shift to PvP, where competition replaces content-driven progress. That is not a finite game. That is a game that replaces content-driven progress with competition ladders.

If you have a game that has a fixed finite number of progressional tiers, and you declare the top one to be the "elite tier" that you don't expect most players to ever achieve, then for the vast majority of your players this tier doesn't really exist. The game becomes a game with N-1 progressional tiers. And if the end game only exists at the top tier, then everyone else runs out of things to do eventually and quits. The alternative is to make two different end games, one for the elite players and a separate one for everyone else. That's possible, but in my opinion unless you're dealing with a dev team full of creative savants, it is also completely dumb.

I can say one thing with absolute certainty: this game is not that kind of game. The progressional tiers that the progress titles demarcate are all true progressional tiers. They are intended for the playerbase to progress through. None of them are, or ever were intended to be "elite titles" that represented the final goal of the game. If you think this game is supposed to have such a thing, I'm afraid you're never going to see such a thing in the game. Except maybe when the game finally dies.
i admire the use of stupidly long comments to sound smart, but this point makes no sense and this comment is redundant
If it doesn't make sense, it can't be redundant. And if it doesn't make sense to you, that's primarily because the topic exceeds your knowledge. This is a conversation I've had with dozens of game designers, including ours. Either all of all of us are randomly enjoying a fugue state, or more likely you're just ignorant.
Tbf, it was an incredibly long comment to just say that this game is supposed to have a lot of people in the top tier…

That would be more than excessively long, if that was what it actually said.

SwarmOfRavens · July 2021

BitterSteel said:

Ebony_Naw said:

BitterSteel said:

Genotelli said:
Honestly just shut the hell up and play who cares if the end content is easier for the newer players! Just focus on yourself and if u think the rewards are too much don’t play it…
Or maybe, just maybe, people can see beyond their own accounts and realise that something may be happening that could have negative consequences for the game as a whole, and for the future of the game they love.
So frustrating when conversations devolve to "well you're just jealous" when that obviously wasn't the intent and just ignore the main point.
It’s got the same energy as “just use 3*s”

Don't think they'll ever be something that matches the energy of "just use 3*s".
It's by far the most annoying

MSRDLD · July 2021

This community is the worst sometimes. Stop worrying about other people’s progression compared to yours.

_wasabi_ · July 2021

Don't despair guys, there will be many more titles to get still, whether the Cavaliers have it easier or not

Speeds80 · July 2021

I have 2 6*r3s: havok and symsup, havok gets used for war, and a little content clearing, I use my 5/65 doom 90% of the time rather than symsup, I’m sitting on 4 t5ccs cos I don’t have any champs to use them on that will affect my game play that much at all, you really are overthinking the difference one r3 is going to make to any of the people who will make tb from this event.
As swen said, you can literally buy a t5cc, it’s not an elite milestone

ChriissR · July 2021

Can't wait to get a Emma Frost with Armor Break immunity, Mix Master/tunnel vision, oscillate, kinetic transferance, Tyranny and true Focus and watch these forums complain at how hard it is.

Crcrcrc · July 2021

ChriissR said:
Can't wait to get a Emma Frost with Armor Break immunity, Mix Master/tunnel vision, oscillate, kinetic transferance, Tyranny and true Focus and watch these forums complain at how hard it is.

I for one will be excited to see a fight I can’t do

Buttehrs · July 2021

This is how kabam has always operated though. Those of us that started the game In the beginning didn't even have 4* champs to use to clear anything. Those at the top will always be waiting to use the next higher stuff. Newer players will always get pushed through towards "endgame" faster and faster. But while they are pushed towards harder content, even with a supposed easier time, Those players that already completed said content with "less" usually understand that that is just how It works in the world of mobile games.

DNA3000 · July 2021

ChriissR said:
Can't wait to get a Emma Frost with Armor Break immunity, Mix Master/tunnel vision, oscillate, kinetic transferance, Tyranny and true Focus and watch these forums complain at how hard it is.

Actually, I was kind of disappointed that the Symbiote Supreme we got wasn't Lagacy's start at 2.5 bars of power and good luck sucker version, and I know I wasn't the only one. Not sure if more people complained about him on the forums, or Dave's Iceman. By today's standards Dave's Iceman would be a pushover, but you could probably tweak Lagacy's SS into something suitably nightmarish but still doable today.

SwarmOfRavens · July 2021

ChriissR said:
Can't wait to get a Emma Frost with Armor Break immunity, Mix Master/tunnel vision, oscillate, kinetic transferance, Tyranny and true Focus and watch these forums complain at how hard it is.

This would be one of the easiest Emma frost fights designed.... She'd just get power locked from tyranny.
Heavy spam in the corner with an evade/miss counter

Colinwhitworth69 · July 2021

Some folks just can’t be happy.

DNA3000 · July 2021

Swen said:
This games issue is its value to purchase vs value to earn is out of whack. I honestly can’t wrap my head around people who spend significantly to stay at the top of this game. There is no content that your investment is worth it. You can do it all, f2p, the day it’a released, with abyss being the exception

What you call an "issue" I call "why so many people are allowed to play the game for free."

The game asks the whales to subsidize the free players, the whales say okay, the free players say cool beans; I don't see the issue.

ChiliDog · July 2021

Title progression should not be locked behind character progression. It should be 100% story. The rest is rng.

Crcrcrc · July 2021

ChiliDog said:
The decision to lock a title behind rng t5cc was poor design and poor taste in the first place. It should be based off story progression. These threads make me wonder what is wrong with people. Does the TB title make you kids feel special? We just want to feel special too. Lol.

I don’t have the tb title. I’m posting this specifically because I think it’s throwing off the value that they have built around t5cc

ChiliDog · July 2021

Crcrcrc said:

ChiliDog said:
The decision to lock a title behind rng t5cc was poor design and poor taste in the first place. It should be based off story progression. These threads make me wonder what is wrong with people. Does the TB title make you kids feel special? We just want to feel special too. Lol.
I don’t have the tb title. I’m posting this specifically because I think it’s throwing off the value that they have built around t5cc

T5CC is random. Therefore the only value is $$. Having people at/near the same level of content with different titles due to rng is ignorant.

TheBair123 · July 2021

ChiliDog said:

Crcrcrc said:

ChiliDog said:
The decision to lock a title behind rng t5cc was poor design and poor taste in the first place. It should be based off story progression. These threads make me wonder what is wrong with people. Does the TB title make you kids feel special? We just want to feel special too. Lol.
I don’t have the tb title. I’m posting this specifically because I think it’s throwing off the value that they have built around t5cc
T5CC is random. Therefore the only value is $$. Having people at/near the same level of content with different titles due to rng is ignorant.

It’s not random when you’re giving out 3 25% selectors

GoddessIlias · July 2021

“This content will be difficult for summoners who do the abyss on vacation”

Not gated to thronebreaker ✅
A fight that can be soloed by a 3* ✅
Attack and health values lower than the average zone 10 incursion fight ✅

Yeah, this was definitely worth waiting a whole year for.

SwarmOfRavens · July 2021

ChiliDog said:

Crcrcrc said:

ChiliDog said:
The decision to lock a title behind rng t5cc was poor design and poor taste in the first place. It should be based off story progression. These threads make me wonder what is wrong with people. Does the TB title make you kids feel special? We just want to feel special too. Lol.
I don’t have the tb title. I’m posting this specifically because I think it’s throwing off the value that they have built around t5cc
T5CC is random. Therefore the only value is $$. Having people at/near the same level of content with different titles due to rng is ignorant.

T5CC is random*

*If you chose to ignore the 100%+ selectors we have available in content.

Hilbert_unbeatable2 · July 2021

I think of it this way
Push cavs to tb asap, release some good cyber weekend stuff for tb and in return generate income
By widening thronebreaker pool, more and more spenders purchase the big offers
Win win situation?

ChaosMax1012 · July 2021

GoddessIlias said:
“This content will be difficult for summoners who do the abyss on vacation”

Not gated to thronebreaker ✅
A fight that can be soloed by a 3* ✅
Attack and health values lower than the average zone 10 incursion fight ✅

Yeah, this was definitely worth waiting a whole year for.

2*

DNA3000 · July 2021

ChiliDog said:
Title progression should not be locked behind character progression. It should be 100% story. The rest is rng.

Sounds nice on paper, but its a mess in practice. If story progress was the only gate to overall progress, that would place strict limits on the difficulty of story arc content. But we don't have and will likely never have tons of story arc content that would allow for multiple diverse advancement paths through the game, like say an MMO might. So the story content would arbitrarily roadblock a lot of players.

The players who tend to advocate for this tend to be higher skill lower activity players: players who think demonstrations of skill should eliminate the need to spend time advancing in the game, completely coincidentally because they have a lot of the former and less of the latter. However, games that target this tend to end up being a lot more niche, because the vast majority of humans can't fit into that mold.

Roster growth might have a random component, but it also is primarily a function of time. Anyone can build a strong roster given enough time. By making progress dependent on both content progress and roster progress, and balancing all other parts of the game around the combination of both, the game becomes a lot more friendly to a wider audience, because it can now accommodate a wider range of players with differing levels of skill and time to burn.

What should the game do? It should try to balance meaningful progress with wide appeal, and I think it does a decent job at that. For the most part, I would rather play this game than most alternate reality versions of the game that would have followed most other people's ideas of what it should be instead.

Worknprogress · July 2021

TB title is going on a year old now. Considering it was fairly watered down from the start, not sure what you expected almost a year later. They're obviously trying to drag people across that line now which is fine at this point. By end of 7.4 at the latest I expect another title showing up that will require R4 6*s and the screeching about it will start all over.

I hate to say this, but SoP’s Rewards to Difficulty ratio is way too high

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