State of the Game - an open letter

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  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Member Posts: 22,016 ★★★★★
    Wozzle007 said:

    Wozzle007 said:

    MojoHater said:

    Hazzalec1 said:

    Very eloquently written. Points were very clear and just straight facts.

    Not really sure how anyone can disagree.

    It's not all facts. Actually most of it is feelings. There's no way to prove 100's of people are leaving daily. That's assumption.
    I "assume" you "feel" the weight of how much people disagree with you?
    No. Most of those are pettiness.
    It’s not pettiness it just that everyone disagrees with you and your Kabam is awesome no matter what posts.
    If that were true, I'd have 0 "agrees". It literally doesn't matter what I say. There are people that click it regardless. Doesn't bother me either way.

    But again, you're wrong again. I've already said in this thread that Cav MEQ is a disappointment and has been since launch. AQ is also incredibly boring and needs an overhaul. There's many things I don't like but because I'd don't agree with your incredibly jaded view on everything, you think that I think Kabam is the most awesome thing ever. I'll continue to have my view point just like will. You'll go on playing a game you dislike so much made by a company you hate even more. Life goes on.
    With respect you state it’s a been a disappointment since launch, but in reality it’s a disappointment to you. Earlier in this thread you said that this post wasn’t fact, it’s feeling and you can’t prove 100s of people are leaving the game. Your assertion that Cav MEQ is a disappointment is a feeling and it’s your feeling. The historic issue people had was related to the time taken to complete it. This has been largely fixed with the class based nodes and difficulty hasn’t really come up as an issue. The number of dislikes on your post compared to likes show (at least for this self selecting sample) your in the minority that’s it’s a disappointment. The SEQ this month is pretty far away from the bench mark difficulty/fight effort at least for week 2.
    The class based nodes have always been there and it's never been a difficult piece of content. Since the release of the Cav difficulty, people have complained about the rewards. They added more in like 2 months after. And I don't know a single person who enjoys doing cavalier month to month.

    The only ones who find it hard are the new Cav players who haven't developed their rosters yet.

    This community never thinks rewards match the difficulty. I have yet to see anything released where everyone agrees the rewards are fine for what the content is. It's either too good of rewards because it's too easy or too "hard" making rewards not good enough. If it were up to the community, rewards would be whatever 6* they want, 6* generic AGs, R5 6* materials and 10k units for Act 1 difficulty. OP literally only points out 1 fight in Cav that's touch more difficult (for them) and wants more rewards when Cav difficulty has varying levels each month and always has.

    So again I ask, if this month is "harder" and deserves better rewards but next month is easier, does Kabam take away those better rewards?
    After the initial feedback on the time it takes to complete they pretty much doubled the amount damage the class based nodes do making the CAV MEQ much quicker. That also changed the T5CC to a nexus. Since then I don’t think there’s been any serious complaints about the rewards.

    Yes, if Kabam makes a month “significantly” harder the rewards should probably be adjusted upwards, if next month it goes back to baseline or easier the rewards go back to normal. SEQ’s rewards are variable anyway.
    They increased the amount of 6* shards in addition to the Nexus. The didn't increase all of them, the mostly just changed how quickly you can get them.

    So who decides if it's harder or easier? New Cav players will always find it difficult. Thronebreakers with big, expansive rosters will never find the MEQs or even SEQs difficult. So who draws the line?
  • Stagedear85Stagedear85 Member Posts: 774 ★★★
    Everything here was well said, hope kabam takes a good look at this.
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  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,647 Guardian
    Kerneas said:

    Hoitado said:

    Hazzalec1 said:

    Very eloquently written. Points were very clear and just straight facts.

    Not really sure how anyone can disagree.

    It's not all facts. Actually most of it is feelings. There's no way to prove 100's of people are leaving daily. That's assumption.


    So you agree that all other months, Cav MEQ's should have lesser rewards because they have been overwhelmingly easy? We finally get a difficult fight in Cav MEQ and rewards need to be increased?





    Well Said OP
    So tell me how I'm wrong? Cav MEQs have not lived up to what they're supposed to have been. It's some of the most boring content in the game next to AQ. They put a terrax fight in the 2.1 and all the sudden they difficulty is exponentially increased and we deserve increased rewards? So that obviously means the rewards were to high before that terrax fight right? Make it make sense for me.
    No, it means that befor that we were getting rewarded fine. Now the difficulty went up and the rewards didn't
    The difficulty didn't go up. The whole Cav difficulty is a joke. The Terrax fight isn't even hard. I've solo'd the fight with Dr Doom all 5 times.

    Now, if they raised all health pools to 500k and increased attack values by 500% and removed the class global buffs then sure, increase the rewards.
    Do you believe in these "quantum states" of rewards? Where the rewards can exist on certain tresholds and nothing between? I do not directly oppose you, afterall I haven't gone through Cav EQ this month yet, I just wonder what you think. Could you operate with some floating value of say ±5% depending on difficulty of the given month? Or do you really insist we need to double the hp values in order to move the rewards even the slightest?
    There's a reason that as far as I'm aware no one does this. It is a lot of extra work for zero benefit. For one thing, you're asking the devs to adjust the rewards based on the relative difficulty of the content before it is released. It doesn't work if they change the rewards after the content has been released and done by a lot of players: that would just create chaos. But the devs *always* aim for the approximate effort to do the content to be roughly in line with the rewards. If they are wrong - or to be precise if you think they are wrong - they won't know that when they are designing the content and the rewards.

    But let's say this is just magically possible. Now you're asking the developers to spend time tweaking individual monthly rewards by plus or minus 5% in a game where progression is measured on a time scale of years. And for every month where the reward get tweaked upward, there's likely to be months where the rewards are tweaked downward. So the easy months that everyone can do will have lower rewards, and the harder months that fewer people can do will have higher rewards. Who does this benefit? Only the people who can already do the harder content. So the people currently complaining about the higher difficulty will disproportionately get less rewards, while the people fine with the higher difficult will get significantly more rewards. Is that the intent?

    And all of this ignores how games are actually developed. Although this is a bit of an oversimplification, it is the rewards that are set first, and the content created to match them second. It isn't the content that is created first, and the rewards then set to match. If you're a content designer for a game company, you aren't allowed to make up whatever rewards you want. You simply don't have that discretion. Rewards follow very specific progression and economic rules. The rewards we get for monthly side quests follow a longer term budget that you can't arbitrarily break. To follow those rules, rewards are set first, based on how much rewards the game can give out in a month to fit into longer period budgets. Then the content is created to fit those reward budgets. Making rewards higher in one month would mean making them lower in the next month regardless of difficulty, which would be far more problematic than fluctuating difficulty.

    Given all the collateral issues surrounding reward design, small tweaks are rarely made to rewards. No one fights over the last 5%. If you think 1.05 is what it should be, 1.00 is close enough for most game developers. So yeah, rewards do tend to make quantum jumps, because if it is 500 now and you believe it should be 515, nobody cares, and your project manager will tell you to stop bothering them about it. It changes when it should be 645, and then they'll probably change it to 750 so they don't have to change it again for a while.
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  • edited November 2021
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  • StellarStellar Member Posts: 1,086 ★★★★

    Stellar said:

    3 days after nearly 400 of Like, Agree and awesome, KABAM answer...finally



    Well it has been the weekend.
    Well the week-end is over and yet still no answer !
  • CoMinowCoMinow Member Posts: 338 ★★
    edited November 2021
    How did this thread turn into @Demonzfyre arguing with a bunch of people who think the monthly is hard and roster depth? and how is everyone disagreeing with him?.. the monthly is always the same, you have the counters or you don’t. It’s real simple. The only thing that makes it seem harder is the game not functioning properly. #Cakewalk

    And @DNA3000 arguing about whatever that argument is about?(sorry I don’t have 3 hours to read whatever it is, just making a point) so please don’t rip me in a giant post, just call me an ahole or something if you think I deserve it.

    And why isn’t anyone from @kabam commenting on what seems to be the closest thing to unanimous I’ve ever seen on the forums? It’s tragic how much the majority agree and how all anyone wants to do is argue about other things.

    Can we just be on same page once? We all play the game, the game is broken and we want it fixed. Can we just work on getting a response from the company we all support and give record profits to almost quarterly? Please
  • LordSmasherLordSmasher Member Posts: 1,566 ★★★★★
    Stellar said:

    Stellar said:

    3 days after nearly 400 of Like, Agree and awesome, KABAM answer...finally



    Well it has been the weekend.
    Well the week-end is over and yet still no answer !
    Yeh! Clocks ticking.
  • CrusaderjrCrusaderjr Member Posts: 1,059 ★★★★
    Mauled said:

    plot twist, concernedplayer999 is actually a high ranked kabam employee :o

    Would tickle me if it was actually Kabam Mike after finally breaking over having to defend the state of the game for the last year.
    it wouldnt surprise me tbh xD would be a super cool plot twist. kabam mike was always the leak we needed


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  • Scratchmaster23Scratchmaster23 Member Posts: 183 ★★
    100% Agree, well constructed and written post.
    Please bring back the game we all knew and loved
  • JessieSJessieS Member Posts: 1,503 ★★★★
    So any updates ? Especially if the side quest will be improved ?
  • KerneasKerneas Member Posts: 3,825 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Kerneas said:

    Hoitado said:

    Hazzalec1 said:

    Very eloquently written. Points were very clear and just straight facts.

    Not really sure how anyone can disagree.

    It's not all facts. Actually most of it is feelings. There's no way to prove 100's of people are leaving daily. That's assumption.


    So you agree that all other months, Cav MEQ's should have lesser rewards because they have been overwhelmingly easy? We finally get a difficult fight in Cav MEQ and rewards need to be increased?





    Well Said OP
    So tell me how I'm wrong? Cav MEQs have not lived up to what they're supposed to have been. It's some of the most boring content in the game next to AQ. They put a terrax fight in the 2.1 and all the sudden they difficulty is exponentially increased and we deserve increased rewards? So that obviously means the rewards were to high before that terrax fight right? Make it make sense for me.
    No, it means that befor that we were getting rewarded fine. Now the difficulty went up and the rewards didn't
    The difficulty didn't go up. The whole Cav difficulty is a joke. The Terrax fight isn't even hard. I've solo'd the fight with Dr Doom all 5 times.

    Now, if they raised all health pools to 500k and increased attack values by 500% and removed the class global buffs then sure, increase the rewards.
    Do you believe in these "quantum states" of rewards? Where the rewards can exist on certain tresholds and nothing between? I do not directly oppose you, afterall I haven't gone through Cav EQ this month yet, I just wonder what you think. Could you operate with some floating value of say ±5% depending on difficulty of the given month? Or do you really insist we need to double the hp values in order to move the rewards even the slightest?
    There's a reason that as far as I'm aware no one does this. It is a lot of extra work for zero benefit. For one thing, you're asking the devs to adjust the rewards based on the relative difficulty of the content before it is released. It doesn't work if they change the rewards after the content has been released and done by a lot of players: that would just create chaos. But the devs *always* aim for the approximate effort to do the content to be roughly in line with the rewards. If they are wrong - or to be precise if you think they are wrong - they won't know that when they are designing the content and the rewards.

    But let's say this is just magically possible. Now you're asking the developers to spend time tweaking individual monthly rewards by plus or minus 5% in a game where progression is measured on a time scale of years. And for every month where the reward get tweaked upward, there's likely to be months where the rewards are tweaked downward. So the easy months that everyone can do will have lower rewards, and the harder months that fewer people can do will have higher rewards. Who does this benefit? Only the people who can already do the harder content. So the people currently complaining about the higher difficulty will disproportionately get less rewards, while the people fine with the higher difficult will get significantly more rewards. Is that the intent?

    And all of this ignores how games are actually developed. Although this is a bit of an oversimplification, it is the rewards that are set first, and the content created to match them second. It isn't the content that is created first, and the rewards then set to match. If you're a content designer for a game company, you aren't allowed to make up whatever rewards you want. You simply don't have that discretion. Rewards follow very specific progression and economic rules. The rewards we get for monthly side quests follow a longer term budget that you can't arbitrarily break. To follow those rules, rewards are set first, based on how much rewards the game can give out in a month to fit into longer period budgets. Then the content is created to fit those reward budgets. Making rewards higher in one month would mean making them lower in the next month regardless of difficulty, which would be far more problematic than fluctuating difficulty.

    Given all the collateral issues surrounding reward design, small tweaks are rarely made to rewards. No one fights over the last 5%. If you think 1.05 is what it should be, 1.00 is close enough for most game developers. So yeah, rewards do tend to make quantum jumps, because if it is 500 now and you believe it should be 515, nobody cares, and your project manager will tell you to stop bothering them about it. It changes when it should be 645, and then they'll probably change it to 750 so they don't have to change it again for a while.
    You are right about punishing the weaker players, I didn't think about that.

    Still tho, I am not asking the devs for anything in this direction. I have just been watching a discussion of Demonzyfire (I think) with people here and this question came to my mind. I just asked that person what their opinion on that idea is, and I've got my answer. End of story.

    Thank you for your response tho, it gave me more insight into it
  • PorkeyPorkey Member Posts: 6
    Totally agree well said ,shame kabam have not responded to the players in any way even considering that cyber weekend is on the way , some people would think with a chance of a big cash input during that weekend you would try and keep your players happy
  • Fit_Fun9329Fit_Fun9329 Member Posts: 2,183 ★★★★★
    They will reply. They have to.

    I think, they have some meetings now regarding how to communicate with the community. Maybe someone or many at kabam is/are creating some draft answers and the management must approve it. As I said earlier, this thread here nailed all the problems the game has right now. An official answer will come, we need to wait patiently :smile:
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Member Posts: 22,016 ★★★★★
    Ciedre said:

    Stopping content is the absolutely worst thing they can do.

    Not fixing their content is the worst thing they could do.
    The fact that they keep releasing bugged content is the second worse thing they can do, because it takes away hope of them actually listening to the playerbase.

    What worries me is that they dont seem to have an active test server. If people here got to test new content/champions/patches before they went live, then a lot of these issues would have been noticed before release. I really dont get why they cant have a proper testserver (well I suppose its because they dont want to let players practice harder fights there, rather than having them spend extra units on the live server, but that would still be better then having all the bugs go live).
    You don't know anything about what they have or don't have. For you to say "not fixing their content is the worst thing" just shows how much you don't understand.

    So tell us how to fix it. Tell us what they should be doing instead? While you're at it, how would you like them to test content successfully for the wide variety of devices this game is played on. Since you seem to know so much about what they don't have, explain it for me. Make it make sense.
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