As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.
1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.
The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.
Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.
2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.
Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.
The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.
Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible
People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.
Please explain how this is a relevant comment to the ideas presented here, because it’s not it’s a derailment if reasonable ideas, and it shouldn’t be allowed
Huh?
How does something from years ago relate to current potions not being useful or content that is designed to consume more potions than you can carry? It wasn’t relevant to either point being discussed, it’s a derailment, you are derailing those 2 ideas with your comment. So I’d like us to go back to those 2 ideas if you’d like to continue discussions with me, otherwise Good Afternoon.
How does something that was for newer Players being milked relate to something that was for newer Players being milked now? Do I need to explain that? The same justifications were being used, the percentage, the content, the bugs, the P2W.....
Except that’s not the conversation you are quoting. Do I need to explain that? Moving on…
Yes it was. The conversation was justifying the farming situation with the state of Revives. The reality is, wherever Players can find an easy advantage, they'll take full advantage. Which is fine, unless it becomes a problem. It's become a problem.
Wrong. The problem is kabam creating content that requires massive amounts of revives and then saying you can't farm said revives. You must pay for them with cash/units. That's their problem. Not ours.
It's everyone's problem. Aside from the fact that the design needs to evolve over time to match that farming, as the game is created in part by the data results, it's also a case of people not being patient enough. You don't need to farm like mad to do content. You can save Resources and wait. Yet people are in the habit of wanting to do it the second it comes out.
Whilst quick enough to blame the player base for not being patient ( kabams side as usual ) You forget that we are enticed to complete new content by kabam, ie. new summoner levels with even better rewards, better aq levels with higher prestige, defender diversity by having as many great and different defender at a high level, battle grounds needing more and more champs at a high level to suit there latest mods. So YOURE WRONG
To the best of my knowledge, Kabam doesn't push Players to do anything. They design the game for everyone to play at the level they choose, at their own pace. There are various incentives to progress, like Titles, but they're not pushing anyone to run right out and do it right away. Even less so to take advantage of Resources that are there for Players starting out.
Push is different from entice, if you need to change the words to defend yourself from being wrong then it’s better to ignore. Glad I could help with basic knowledge though. Happy to help you with other basic stuff so you can keep up with things. Top tip, after you run out of fingers then take your socks off and you can reach 20.
I know what you said. The implication is that Kabam is responsible because they design content that has certain requirements. What you're not acknowledging is the expectations that Players and Alliances place is not Kabam's doing. No one is forcing people to run out and "spam" Revs to do it right away. That's a choice. One that lacks patience.
This is such an out-of-touch take and is the equivalent of ignoring any criticism leveled at this game with "No one is forcing people to play the game so stop complaining". At that point, why are you even partaking in the discussion?
He not in an high aq alliance where prestige matters so doing content when comes out isn’t important to him. He thinks he speaks for everyone when In reality his comments are out of touch with a bit of the player base. His comments are more in line with mid tier players which he is
Clearly you are not either because you would know that if you are in a top alliance then that means you have the game permanent content done and you are playing mainly AQ, AW, BG and Arenas besides monthly events, so they dont have the lack of resources the rest of the people have.
And anyway, Act 1 to 3 are not meant to be done by Paragon Players, they are meant to be done by people progressing the game, the fact that you could do it doesnt mean that it is meant to be done.
And again, Everest content is still meant to be hard, so you have to prepare yourself for a determinated time to do it, if everyone is able to do it the first day spamming revives, that makes Everest Content just another normal content for every but where you have to farm revives and have Herc to be able to do it.
Maybe Kabam could just put a node like "Hercules gets Sealed Fate and he gets a Degen of 100% HP in 30 seconds" so people dont abuse him? Maybe, but that doesnt mean that you should be able to do Everest content the first day.
This is not a bad change, I think it is necessary, but this change should come with Bug fixes so players dont have to waste more revives than needed and with the resources cap being upgraded with progression so Paragon players have maybe 30 cap instead of 15, because Everest content needs to be done with revives.
And anyway, Kabam didnt say that they are making those Acts between 1 to 3 to have no revives, they said they are going to nerf it so that you cant just get 50 revives in one day spamming the same quest over and over, which is, objectively, a good change for the game.
And as someone stated before, if you want to do the hardest content in game the day it releases, that is a you problem, because it isnt meant to be done the first day.
"Yeah but Lagacy did it and it took an insane amount of revives and he is very very good"
Yeah, Lags is a very skilled player, but he is a content creator, he does it the first day because it is his job to do so, and as he himself stated, he was not prepared really to do it at that point so he used more revives than needed, and as I showed before, there are players that are able to do EoP itself with less than 25 revives.
Seriously I dont know how the hell everyone is this annoyed about needing revives constantly, I didnt know that everybody has every content of the game done so they can just do Carinas Challenges and the new content that comes out, looks like everybody did Abyss already, and explored all acts and Variants, so their only content left is Carinas Challenges, damn, you guys are either so good or you play the game all day.
And seriously, there is a lot of people that does those Challenges with less than 30 revives, if there are people that can do it with that amount, you can too, if you need more revives than you should then you should farm units or spend on the game, you want to be a f2p still? Arenas are your friends, farm units and buy revive deals when they come out so you can do the Carinas Challenges.
Everyone is acting like now you have to waste units on revives like you wont have revives by playing the game when thats not the case, you are going to have enough revives to do the content, but you are not going to be able to have 100 in 2 days.
I still think this is not the moment to do this change, since the bugs make you use revives even if you shouldnt, fix the bugs first, then make this changes.
My only problem maybe with the change is the quality of the new Daily Quest rewards, it should be adapted to the progression levels, and make the cap bigger, with that little tweaks the change is good enough to be applied.
I’d be interested to know across how many players the 100k to 300k revives are farmed daily given how big the playerbase is
and how many were actually used in content. I (and I assume many others) double dip for solo and alliance event points because why not and if something comes up or the moment passes, I won't have the uninterrupted hours to tackle difficult content I'm not getting paid to complete, they end up in the stash and get sold if I remember or just expire if I forget.
As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.
1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.
The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.
Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.
2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.
Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.
Completely agree. Great points.
The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.
Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible
People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.
Please explain how this is a relevant comment to the ideas presented here, because it’s not it’s a derailment if reasonable ideas, and it shouldn’t be allowed
Huh?
How does something from years ago relate to current potions not being useful or content that is designed to consume more potions than you can carry? It wasn’t relevant to either point being discussed, it’s a derailment, you are derailing those 2 ideas with your comment. So I’d like us to go back to those 2 ideas if you’d like to continue discussions with me, otherwise Good Afternoon.
How does something that was for newer Players being milked relate to something that was for newer Players being milked now? Do I need to explain that? The same justifications were being used, the percentage, the content, the bugs, the P2W.....
Except that’s not the conversation you are quoting. Do I need to explain that? Moving on…
Yes it was. The conversation was justifying the farming situation with the state of Revives. The reality is, wherever Players can find an easy advantage, they'll take full advantage. Which is fine, unless it becomes a problem. It's become a problem.
Wrong. The problem is kabam creating content that requires massive amounts of revives and then saying you can't farm said revives. You must pay for them with cash/units. That's their problem. Not ours.
It's everyone's problem. Aside from the fact that the design needs to evolve over time to match that farming, as the game is created in part by the data results, it's also a case of people not being patient enough. You don't need to farm like mad to do content. You can save Resources and wait. Yet people are in the habit of wanting to do it the second it comes out.
Whilst quick enough to blame the player base for not being patient ( kabams side as usual ) You forget that we are enticed to complete new content by kabam, ie. new summoner levels with even better rewards, better aq levels with higher prestige, defender diversity by having as many great and different defender at a high level, battle grounds needing more and more champs at a high level to suit there latest mods. So YOURE WRONG
To the best of my knowledge, Kabam doesn't push Players to do anything. They design the game for everyone to play at the level they choose, at their own pace. There are various incentives to progress, like Titles, but they're not pushing anyone to run right out and do it right away. Even less so to take advantage of Resources that are there for Players starting out.
Push is different from entice, if you need to change the words to defend yourself from being wrong then it’s better to ignore. Glad I could help with basic knowledge though. Happy to help you with other basic stuff so you can keep up with things. Top tip, after you run out of fingers then take your socks off and you can reach 20.
I know what you said. The implication is that Kabam is responsible because they design content that has certain requirements. What you're not acknowledging is the expectations that Players and Alliances place is not Kabam's doing. No one is forcing people to run out and "spam" Revs to do it right away. That's a choice. One that lacks patience.
This is such an out-of-touch take and is the equivalent of ignoring any criticism leveled at this game with "No one is forcing people to play the game so stop complaining". At that point, why are you even partaking in the discussion?
He not in an high aq alliance where prestige matters so doing content when comes out isn’t important to him. He thinks he speaks for everyone when In reality his comments are out of touch with a bit of the player base. His comments are more in line with mid tier players which he is
Clearly you are not either because you would know that if you are in a top alliance then that means you have the game permanent content done and you are playing mainly AQ, AW, BG and Arenas besides monthly events, so they dont have the lack of resources the rest of the people have.
And anyway, Act 1 to 3 are not meant to be done by Paragon Players, they are meant to be done by people progressing the game, the fact that you could do it doesnt mean that it is meant to be done.
And again, Everest content is still meant to be hard, so you have to prepare yourself for a determinated time to do it, if everyone is able to do it the first day spamming revives, that makes Everest Content just another normal content for every but where you have to farm revives and have Herc to be able to do it.
Maybe Kabam could just put a node like "Hercules gets Sealed Fate and he gets a Degen of 100% HP in 30 seconds" so people dont abuse him? Maybe, but that doesnt mean that you should be able to do Everest content the first day.
This is not a bad change, I think it is necessary, but this change should come with Bug fixes so players dont have to waste more revives than needed and with the resources cap being upgraded with progression so Paragon players have maybe 30 cap instead of 15, because Everest content needs to be done with revives.
And anyway, Kabam didnt say that they are making those Acts between 1 to 3 to have no revives, they said they are going to nerf it so that you cant just get 50 revives in one day spamming the same quest over and over, which is, objectively, a good change for the game.
And as someone stated before, if you want to do the hardest content in game the day it releases, that is a you problem, because it isnt meant to be done the first day.
"Yeah but Lagacy did it and it took an insane amount of revives and he is very very good"
Yeah, Lags is a very skilled player, but he is a content creator, he does it the first day because it is his job to do so, and as he himself stated, he was not prepared really to do it at that point so he used more revives than needed, and as I showed before, there are players that are able to do EoP itself with less than 25 revives.
Seriously I dont know how the hell everyone is this annoyed about needing revives constantly, I didnt know that everybody has every content of the game done so they can just do Carinas Challenges and the new content that comes out, looks like everybody did Abyss already, and explored all acts and Variants, so their only content left is Carinas Challenges, damn, you guys are either so good or you play the game all day.
And seriously, there is a lot of people that does those Challenges with less than 30 revives, if there are people that can do it with that amount, you can too, if you need more revives than you should then you should farm units or spend on the game, you want to be a f2p still? Arenas are your friends, farm units and buy revive deals when they come out so you can do the Carinas Challenges.
Everyone is acting like now you have to waste units on revives like you wont have revives by playing the game when thats not the case, you are going to have enough revives to do the content, but you are not going to be able to have 100 in 2 days.
I still think this is not the moment to do this change, since the bugs make you use revives even if you shouldnt, fix the bugs first, then make this changes.
My only problem maybe with the change is the quality of the new Daily Quest rewards, it should be adapted to the progression levels, and make the cap bigger, with that little tweaks the change is good enough to be applied.
They will have them at a 1-5% drop rate, which in my eyes is too little. So much for the “we wanted to get rid of the RNG aspect of obtaining revives”…
They will have them at a 1-5% drop rate, which in my eyes is too little. So much for the “we wanted to get rid of the RNG aspect of obtaining revives”…
I'm talking about going in and having 1 or 2 just randomly placed on a path...
As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.
1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.
The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.
Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.
2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.
Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.
The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.
Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible
People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.
Please explain how this is a relevant comment to the ideas presented here, because it’s not it’s a derailment if reasonable ideas, and it shouldn’t be allowed
Huh?
How does something from years ago relate to current potions not being useful or content that is designed to consume more potions than you can carry? It wasn’t relevant to either point being discussed, it’s a derailment, you are derailing those 2 ideas with your comment. So I’d like us to go back to those 2 ideas if you’d like to continue discussions with me, otherwise Good Afternoon.
How does something that was for newer Players being milked relate to something that was for newer Players being milked now? Do I need to explain that? The same justifications were being used, the percentage, the content, the bugs, the P2W.....
Except that’s not the conversation you are quoting. Do I need to explain that? Moving on…
Yes it was. The conversation was justifying the farming situation with the state of Revives. The reality is, wherever Players can find an easy advantage, they'll take full advantage. Which is fine, unless it becomes a problem. It's become a problem.
Wrong. The problem is kabam creating content that requires massive amounts of revives and then saying you can't farm said revives. You must pay for them with cash/units. That's their problem. Not ours.
It's everyone's problem. Aside from the fact that the design needs to evolve over time to match that farming, as the game is created in part by the data results, it's also a case of people not being patient enough. You don't need to farm like mad to do content. You can save Resources and wait. Yet people are in the habit of wanting to do it the second it comes out.
Whilst quick enough to blame the player base for not being patient ( kabams side as usual ) You forget that we are enticed to complete new content by kabam, ie. new summoner levels with even better rewards, better aq levels with higher prestige, defender diversity by having as many great and different defender at a high level, battle grounds needing more and more champs at a high level to suit there latest mods. So YOURE WRONG
To the best of my knowledge, Kabam doesn't push Players to do anything. They design the game for everyone to play at the level they choose, at their own pace. There are various incentives to progress, like Titles, but they're not pushing anyone to run right out and do it right away. Even less so to take advantage of Resources that are there for Players starting out.
Push is different from entice, if you need to change the words to defend yourself from being wrong then it’s better to ignore. Glad I could help with basic knowledge though. Happy to help you with other basic stuff so you can keep up with things. Top tip, after you run out of fingers then take your socks off and you can reach 20.
I know what you said. The implication is that Kabam is responsible because they design content that has certain requirements. What you're not acknowledging is the expectations that Players and Alliances place is not Kabam's doing. No one is forcing people to run out and "spam" Revs to do it right away. That's a choice. One that lacks patience.
If you knew what I said then why change it? Kabam entice us all the time with offers, progression etc are you saying they don’t entice us?
I find entice to be a point of view that lacks onus. They make things available. Some are more invested than others.
They make things available, some more enticing than others. So carrot not the stick that you changed it to, so my points been made thank you.
I'm not sure how you interpreted that from what I said. I said it appeals to some more than others. That depends on where they're at, but it also depends on how bad some want it. That doesn't account for how fast people go after it and the vices they use to get it. A store can advertise a shiny, new sportscar. I can either work towards it, save money moderately, and eventually buy the car. I can also sell everything I own, swindle and take advantage of any unscrupulous opportunity to make money, and buy it as fast as humanly possible. Both cases, that shiny, new sportscar is just a car on a lot.
I truly believe this highlights a completely different issue entirely. Is potion farming bad game design? Oh yes it is. But lets look at the content its used for. Abyss styled content… this type of content is the pinnacle of bad game design where fights are only hard due to the fact your brain shuts off half way through or has an unreasonable timer that ends the fight immediately forcing a revive. The reason for outrage imo is completely understandable as the best rewards are locked behind the most revive intensive content. If this change was announced and kabam said “no more abyss 2” the backlash would not be so severe but the fact kabam willingly acknowledged the revive farming was making such content bearable should reveal the ugly truth that people dont like revive spam content in the first place.
Entirely agree and i want to add: Going in with the change of revive farming should ever be acceptable only if they will REWORK Abyss and Labyrinth of Legends and will agree on NEVER designing such end-game content ever again. And they should reconsider the design of many other pieces of content then. They claim that revive spam trivializes content, when in reality it is something that makes it possible to complete in the first place. Take "Mike's revenge" with 3 star Cyclops for example. With the way how collector designed, doing this challenge in less than 20-30 revives is downright impossible even for very skilled players. Imbalance of stats, decrease of ability accuracy, random healing/unstoppable and unblockable specials - all contributes to create lose/lose/lose situation where regardless of how well you're doing you still fated to die and pushed into spamming revives as main way to progress the boss fight. That was just one example of challenge that is based around idea of "throwing enough revives onto enemy till it dies" - and many more of them still exist. If they were opposed to the idea of throwing revives as way of playing the game, they would not torture the playerbase with such atrocities. But they never were against this. In fact, their post just highlights that they wanted it to happen and they want to MONETIZE IT.
Just gonna drop this real fast, make l1 revives less units. It’s obvious spending is all kabam cares for but 40 units for l2s suck so atleast have l1s be purchasable for less units. Thanks
But they never were against this. In fact, their post just highlights that they wanted it to happen and they want to MONETIZE IT.
I can think of a better ways for them to make a buck. This wasn't even slick. This kinda makes sense if they come through with the "compromise after talking it over with the team" that they wanted all along, but it's so shamelessly ham-fisted and pitiful to accomplish their goals that way.
"Why Make Changes? This frenzied revive farming trivializes difficult content like Carina’s Challenges and Eternity of Pain...."
I mean, let's all just be completely honest here; there's 1 reason and 1 reason alone why this is being done, and it's not the trivialization of difficult content. You're perfectly fine with us clearing difficult content by "spamming revives"...... You just don't want us able to do it without opening our wallets.
In my honest opinion, the biggest issue i have with this, isnt the lack of revives specifically. Its that all it takes is one mistake or slip up in a very long technical fight 5 min+ at times and you get combed from 100% to zero in an instant. No matter how skilled you are (minus a select few insanely good players) your going to make mistakes. Now we have a very limited # of revives for these mistakes (or due to bugs) to finish the quests or spend lots of units / $. Also this penazlizes that learning curve some players have. As with the EOP, you need to do the fights to remember/ learn the rotation. Now you only have 2 options. Get to that fight (could be 2nd to last one) and figure out as you go and spend units/$ or quit when you die and wait a few weeks to stock back up, grind for an hour or so to see if you can remember the fight again. And i know i would forget those fights by then.
It’s sad that one person is allowed to constantly derail discussions…
The heal pots are completely irrelevant these days, inventory caps don’t adequately address this. The amount of HP per a potion needs a strong and sincere look. I’m optimistic that this is an active discussion based on things DLL mentioned today. My hat is off to him, such a great stand up dude. Honestly can’t say enough nice things about how he responded to questions on this topic today. It makes me less cynical about providing feedback and maybe there can be a reasonable follow up. Offering L1s isn’t that. That really is an insult, unless L1s go through some type of dramatic change.
I’m hopeful that caps do go up, that would be nice to see, but it’s not enough on its own. I’d also prefer to see more relevant potions in content like EQ. I’d be happy if it worked like act 7 and 8 on a node with no refreshes. I wanna play the content anyways, if I could get 5-10 revives and/or heal pots that way I’d consider it an improvement over mindless farming.
If Kabam has the decency and actually wants to listen to the player base they just need to scrap the whole situation. We’re literally using resources for other resources- we’re not even exploiting it because it’s within the game.
Leave the cap, leave the expiry time and leave the revive grind. Stop making issues when it’s not needed - you’re making drama on something that players want and need.
Kabam - scrap it. All I want to see now is you to update us that you’re going to take it all on board and leave it as it is.
As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.
1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.
The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.
Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.
2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.
Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.
The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.
Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible
People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.
Please explain how this is a relevant comment to the ideas presented here, because it’s not it’s a derailment if reasonable ideas, and it shouldn’t be allowed
Huh?
How does something from years ago relate to current potions not being useful or content that is designed to consume more potions than you can carry? It wasn’t relevant to either point being discussed, it’s a derailment, you are derailing those 2 ideas with your comment. So I’d like us to go back to those 2 ideas if you’d like to continue discussions with me, otherwise Good Afternoon.
How does something that was for newer Players being milked relate to something that was for newer Players being milked now? Do I need to explain that? The same justifications were being used, the percentage, the content, the bugs, the P2W.....
Except that’s not the conversation you are quoting. Do I need to explain that? Moving on…
Yes it was. The conversation was justifying the farming situation with the state of Revives. The reality is, wherever Players can find an easy advantage, they'll take full advantage. Which is fine, unless it becomes a problem. It's become a problem.
Wrong. The problem is kabam creating content that requires massive amounts of revives and then saying you can't farm said revives. You must pay for them with cash/units. That's their problem. Not ours.
It's everyone's problem. Aside from the fact that the design needs to evolve over time to match that farming, as the game is created in part by the data results, it's also a case of people not being patient enough. You don't need to farm like mad to do content. You can save Resources and wait. Yet people are in the habit of wanting to do it the second it comes out.
Whilst quick enough to blame the player base for not being patient ( kabams side as usual ) You forget that we are enticed to complete new content by kabam, ie. new summoner levels with even better rewards, better aq levels with higher prestige, defender diversity by having as many great and different defender at a high level, battle grounds needing more and more champs at a high level to suit there latest mods. So YOURE WRONG
To the best of my knowledge, Kabam doesn't push Players to do anything. They design the game for everyone to play at the level they choose, at their own pace. There are various incentives to progress, like Titles, but they're not pushing anyone to run right out and do it right away. Even less so to take advantage of Resources that are there for Players starting out.
Push is different from entice, if you need to change the words to defend yourself from being wrong then it’s better to ignore. Glad I could help with basic knowledge though. Happy to help you with other basic stuff so you can keep up with things. Top tip, after you run out of fingers then take your socks off and you can reach 20.
I know what you said. The implication is that Kabam is responsible because they design content that has certain requirements. What you're not acknowledging is the expectations that Players and Alliances place is not Kabam's doing. No one is forcing people to run out and "spam" Revs to do it right away. That's a choice. One that lacks patience.
This is such an out-of-touch take and is the equivalent of ignoring any criticism leveled at this game with "No one is forcing people to play the game so stop complaining". At that point, why are you even partaking in the discussion?
He not in an high aq alliance where prestige matters so doing content when comes out isn’t important to him. He thinks he speaks for everyone when In reality his comments are out of touch with a bit of the player base. His comments are more in line with mid tier players which he is
Clearly you are not either because you would know that if you are in a top alliance then that means you have the game permanent content done and you are playing mainly AQ, AW, BG and Arenas besides monthly events, so they dont have the lack of resources the rest of the people have.
And anyway, Act 1 to 3 are not meant to be done by Paragon Players, they are meant to be done by people progressing the game, the fact that you could do it doesnt mean that it is meant to be done.
And again, Everest content is still meant to be hard, so you have to prepare yourself for a determinated time to do it, if everyone is able to do it the first day spamming revives, that makes Everest Content just another normal content for every but where you have to farm revives and have Herc to be able to do it.
Maybe Kabam could just put a node like "Hercules gets Sealed Fate and he gets a Degen of 100% HP in 30 seconds" so people dont abuse him? Maybe, but that doesnt mean that you should be able to do Everest content the first day.
This is not a bad change, I think it is necessary, but this change should come with Bug fixes so players dont have to waste more revives than needed and with the resources cap being upgraded with progression so Paragon players have maybe 30 cap instead of 15, because Everest content needs to be done with revives.
And anyway, Kabam didnt say that they are making those Acts between 1 to 3 to have no revives, they said they are going to nerf it so that you cant just get 50 revives in one day spamming the same quest over and over, which is, objectively, a good change for the game.
And as someone stated before, if you want to do the hardest content in game the day it releases, that is a you problem, because it isnt meant to be done the first day.
"Yeah but Lagacy did it and it took an insane amount of revives and he is very very good"
Yeah, Lags is a very skilled player, but he is a content creator, he does it the first day because it is his job to do so, and as he himself stated, he was not prepared really to do it at that point so he used more revives than needed, and as I showed before, there are players that are able to do EoP itself with less than 25 revives.
Seriously I dont know how the hell everyone is this annoyed about needing revives constantly, I didnt know that everybody has every content of the game done so they can just do Carinas Challenges and the new content that comes out, looks like everybody did Abyss already, and explored all acts and Variants, so their only content left is Carinas Challenges, damn, you guys are either so good or you play the game all day.
And seriously, there is a lot of people that does those Challenges with less than 30 revives, if there are people that can do it with that amount, you can too, if you need more revives than you should then you should farm units or spend on the game, you want to be a f2p still? Arenas are your friends, farm units and buy revive deals when they come out so you can do the Carinas Challenges.
Everyone is acting like now you have to waste units on revives like you wont have revives by playing the game when thats not the case, you are going to have enough revives to do the content, but you are not going to be able to have 100 in 2 days.
I still think this is not the moment to do this change, since the bugs make you use revives even if you shouldnt, fix the bugs first, then make this changes.
My only problem maybe with the change is the quality of the new Daily Quest rewards, it should be adapted to the progression levels, and make the cap bigger, with that little tweaks the change is good enough to be applied.
Unlike some I will not hide. My name is exactly the same in game. I am in a map 8 alliance where prestige matters. I have done all content In game outside of 3 abyss carina challenges. You sir as I said yesterday your opinion means zero to me or discussion on what end game players want or should be doing after all as you admitted yesterday you haven’t done the content. So till you actually have don’t talk about it cause you have absolutely no damn clue about it or what it takes
I know the likelihood of anyone with any influence seeing this is negligibly small, but I have some thoughts I'd like to share now that I've had some time to think about it.
First off, I understand the need to tone down revive farming. Being able to easily farm >100 revives is excessive, and should probably be rebalanced. However, in the currently stated implementation, the Apothecary is, in my opinion, a horrible solution. Why does the easy difficulty even exist? A single lv1 and lv2 potion is essentially worthless for anyone who's played the game for more than 20 minutes. The only possible reason anyone will even look at the easy difficulty is to see if they got a lucky revive spawn that day. To the dedicated few who check the easy difficulty for a revive every single day, they will be rewarded with a single revive for every 100 quests. At 5 quest refreshes a week, this means that if you check every day, you would get the lucky drop on average once every 5 months or so.
Additionally, with optimal farming, the new system caps out at about 50 farmed revives, assuming one manages their farming perfectly. Realistically, most people will probably cap out in the lower 40s of farmed revives. I don't think that is enough. Before revive farming was a thing, content was absolutely designed to use less revives, and I hope that once it has gone away, quest design can return to this form. However, that still leaves a glaring issue.
Difficult content from the past few years has been developed around revive farming. The average player will need to use many revives, often far more than the 50 softcap proposed. The most egregious example of this is the Dance Off Carina's Challenge. While Abyss, EoP, Gauntlet, and the like can be made cheaper with stronger champions and lots of practice, the same is not true for this challenge. All fights are limited by the rage timer, and there is simply no way around that, unless the relevant champions get buffed in the future. I don't think this challenge is even possible with 50 revives, and that extends to quite a lot of other content as well. I am not the most skilled player, but I would consider myself above average. None of my abyss paths have cost less than 50 revives, and the Carina's Challengers path cost me more than 100 (although I did do path 4, one of the hardest for that team). This content will become unapproachable for the majority of players, especially as rewards depreciate in value. I would absolutely complete all of Carina's v1 if I could farm the resources for it, but I'm not sure I can justify spending thousands of units just for my completionism. The only way to do this sort of content without an obscene cost is to save up months worth of free crystals, which is heavily reliant on RNG. For content designed around a high revive usage, the only way to do it cheaply is to rely even more on RNG, which you cite as a major reason for removing farming.
I think the maximum amount of farmable revives needs to be increased from the current design. Some ideas I have had:
1)Increase revives obtainable in the Apothecary. If 2 revives were obtainable every day, the farmed revive softcap would increase to 60. Even that would go a long way towards making current revive sinks attainable in the future.
2) Make lv2 revives farmable, perhaps at a slower rate. Maybe on the weekends instead of having no Apothecary, there's an improved version that awards a lv2 revive. This increases the maximum amount of revives that can be farmed, but only if the player is willing to prepare some time in advance.
3) An idea I have been thinking through is some way of banking revives inside a quest. What if you could transfer some number of revives from your inventory into a specific quest. Those revives no longer take up inventory space, instead, they can only be used in the quest where they are banked. Once the quest is completed, any remaining revives in the bank are lost. This could be enabled only for specific quests, and could provide a way of keeping current revive-heavy content feasible while still being able to design future content for a reduced number of revives. For instance, perhaps the abyss would allow 25 revives to be banked inside it. If you are prepping for an abyss path, you can effectively farm 75 revives for it, by banking 25 in the abyss quest, and farming the other 50 normally.
If Kabam has the decency and actually wants to listen to the player base they just need to scrap the whole situation. We’re literally using resources for other resources- we’re not even exploiting it because it’s within the game.
Leave the cap, leave the expiry time and leave the revive grind. Stop making issues when it’s not needed - you’re making drama on something that players want and need.
Kabam - scrap it. All I want to see now is you to update us that you’re going to take it all on board and leave it as it is.
Job done - you’re welcome.
This is the best suggestion that I've seen yet.
Farming takes time and resources. There is a clear give and take. For my effort farming, I get to have a stress free experience while I have fun clearing difficult content. I don't see how that hurts the game. I'd argue that this has helped keep players around longer. There are plenty of games where farming low level content is an effective way to level up and/or progress, so it's not like MCOC players have broken the system by doing the same.
Typically, if I'm farming revives, I'm spending units on energy refills. I could hoard those units to spend on holiday deals, but instead I choose to farm and complete content. That means I have to buy more units when holiday deals come around. That's more money in Kabam's pocket, because without farming, I do not have a good enough incentive to spend units at any other time. The value simply is not there.
Kabam, in the future, if you feel the need to make massive changes, it would be awesome if you would open up a discussion on it before making any final decisions and telling us how it is going to be from now on. You need us, and considering how most of us can't stop playing no matter what you do, it seems we need you. Moving forward, let us have some input and maybe we can avoid mass outrage like this again.
I like the idea if the apothecary, but wow, this is the worst idea execution I have ever seen in a video game I think I've ever seen. Hard mode leaves you one guaranteed level 1 revive a day, but you only see how terrible that is once you put it into perspective. Multiple recommendations to me said to bring 30 revives for the grandmaster, some even said to bring 1000 units. The one revive a day makes the preparation for ONE hard fight take 30 days. What about the other quests in the chapter? But hey, you can always spend money. This was not an act of balancing the game, and is instead purely an act of greed.
First of all, let me be clear that I think this is a horrible move hidden behind reasons that really are nothing but really bad excuses.
With that said I’m very surprised with how many players that are shocked about the fact that Kabam wants to monetize this game even more. Of course they want to. They are a company with one purpose and one alone, to generate profit to its owners. To think otherwise is just ignorant. They have created a product that people want and will try to make as much money out of it as they can. If the big numbers drops the game will be terminated.
Many players are also upset that Kabam don’t care about their player base and in some ways they don’t have to. So it’s not that strange. When celebrating 7 years they posted a video whee they stated that they had like 270 million players (if memory serves me). So as long as there is an inflow of players they don’t have to care about the average player that much, there is always new players joining the game with no knowledge about what has happened. Just happy to play with a will to spend. Therefore shouts that “I quit” has very little impact.
So stop being surprised that kabam does what they exist to do.
BUT there is business and there is business and in my opinion they are just doing it so wrong right now. Making a gamechanging move for many players and trying to motivate it with “it’s for your own good”. When clearly it’s because it hurts their business. It’s just signals that they think most players are imbecile. Otherwise they would have made revive farming with units harder as well.
My guess next move will be “we have found a solution. We will increase the inventory in the summoners sigil. Just pay up and you won’t have a problem”.
So if solo cries don’t do much, then maybe the big mass of players joining together like this can have an impact and kabam takes this back to the drawing table. For the sake of the game we all love.
A better solution is to make better content - I believe the original champion fight was one of best fights ever made - yes difficult, needed high skill and no amount of revives could buy you through it.
People Moaned about this being a roadblock and we lost that fight, replaced with long fights that not matter skill require you to revive, see SL carina as perfect example.
Answer - make more fights Like the original champion and test people’s skill and can save the dev time to fix the many bugs we seem to be ignoring
Nothing KASCAM does surprises me. It’s obviously a free to play but pay to win system and they apparently run a very expensive operation and need to find ways to force people to pay for in game resources in order to keep their money machine running. It’s so obvious how everything they do is a money grab. They make small changes in our favor sometimes and then take away something huge. It’s sad how they fail to create an enjoyable experience for free to play players. I almost wish they ran adds to generate revenue instead of constantly taking things away from their loyal community, and making everything so dragged out and tedious unless you spend tons of money on units.
Kabam isn’t wrong. I farmed 300 potions + to do the carinas challenges for my rank 5. I also spent an entire week playing the game while I was at home and work. For a single parent I can’t just spend 500 bucks to complete content, and my name isn’t Lagacy, or Karatemike. Not everyone has that skill, or has whale money. I do however find TIME and usually STILL spend on this game when it’s worth it for an account like my size. I deal with more than 2500 modders in a brand new game mode that’s predicated on COMPETITION, I deal with all your input issues, crashing, bottled out, losing attack bonuses in war etc etc etc. You can’t let the other million players like me farm some revives? Everything in this game depreciates with enough time. So if I have one rank 5 or 10 in a month it won’t matter cause the value will go down. So you want people like me to spend on virtual items that depreciate without allowing us to progress at the rate we invest ourselves into the game without more road blocks? What a crock. This will literally ensure some people never progress beyond certain points and many will leave all together. Smooth as always, Kabam. You really know your stuff
I could not agree with this more. I hope I am wrong but this could start the end of MCOC. I have a feeling a lot of players like this will just stop spending altogether and slowly lose interest in the game. When a game loses the casual spenders, the economy starts to collapse as it is weighted too heavily on whales for survival. I recently started spending again after saying I was going to not spend this year. I did it because it was fun and a good escape. I enjoyed the pay-to-win strategy and was fine that there were people way ahead of me because their spend meant the game would keep going. The one thing I won’t do is pay-to-play. I quit playing Raid for this exact reason. Once I stopped spending it was too hard to do anything or would require being on a majority of the day.
It's not unlimited farming, you need to use energy to farm revives and no one will buy energy refills with units to farm revives unless they are stupid, so it's limited to daily energy or with spare energy refills from alliance objectives or so(which is mainly used to finish EQ and SQ). If they really want us to not use a lot of revives to do content then they can set a limit of items used there like AW or AQ, or they are just saying don't use a lot of revives that you are farming but it's okay to buy as much as you want with units. Maybe it would be a slightly better solution if they add another revive to the daily 22hrs objective.
As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.
1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.
The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.
Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.
2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.
Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.
The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.
Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible
People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.
Please explain how this is a relevant comment to the ideas presented here, because it’s not it’s a derailment if reasonable ideas, and it shouldn’t be allowed
Huh?
How does something from years ago relate to current potions not being useful or content that is designed to consume more potions than you can carry? It wasn’t relevant to either point being discussed, it’s a derailment, you are derailing those 2 ideas with your comment. So I’d like us to go back to those 2 ideas if you’d like to continue discussions with me, otherwise Good Afternoon.
How does something that was for newer Players being milked relate to something that was for newer Players being milked now? Do I need to explain that? The same justifications were being used, the percentage, the content, the bugs, the P2W.....
Except that’s not the conversation you are quoting. Do I need to explain that? Moving on…
Yes it was. The conversation was justifying the farming situation with the state of Revives. The reality is, wherever Players can find an easy advantage, they'll take full advantage. Which is fine, unless it becomes a problem. It's become a problem.
Revive farming has become a problem in a game that has content that requires you to spam revives? This isn't dark souls where players can win the game by simply not getting hit and playing perfectly. This game has content in it that cannot be done WITHOUT spamming upwards of 30-40 revives.
As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.
1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.
The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.
Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.
2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.
Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.
The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.
Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible
People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.
Please explain how this is a relevant comment to the ideas presented here, because it’s not it’s a derailment if reasonable ideas, and it shouldn’t be allowed
Huh?
How does something from years ago relate to current potions not being useful or content that is designed to consume more potions than you can carry? It wasn’t relevant to either point being discussed, it’s a derailment, you are derailing those 2 ideas with your comment. So I’d like us to go back to those 2 ideas if you’d like to continue discussions with me, otherwise Good Afternoon.
How does something that was for newer Players being milked relate to something that was for newer Players being milked now? Do I need to explain that? The same justifications were being used, the percentage, the content, the bugs, the P2W.....
Except that’s not the conversation you are quoting. Do I need to explain that? Moving on…
Yes it was. The conversation was justifying the farming situation with the state of Revives. The reality is, wherever Players can find an easy advantage, they'll take full advantage. Which is fine, unless it becomes a problem. It's become a problem.
Revive farming has become a problem in a game that has content that requires you to spam revives? This isn't dark souls where players can win the game by simply not getting hit and playing perfectly. This game has content in it that cannot be done WITHOUT spamming upwards of 30-40 revives.
Kabam as well as some players seem to forget something here
To some spending their money for revives or whatever is fine for them
To others spending their time to farm revives or whatever is fine for them
Saying 1 is better then the other to me is well stupid. You are still spending something to get those revives rather it be your time or your money
Kabam needs to find a better balance. Saying ok we don’t want you to farm any at all so here a quest that you can do 6 days a week for 1 20% revive and we also don’t want you to depend on rng to get those revives but here is an extra 1% chance at 20% revive and 5% chance at a 40% is well stupid
As I've said before I'm wholeheartedly against this change for a few reasons. I'm going to focus on the two that I believe are the most significant.
1 - The potion/revive market has been in dire need of an overhaul for years, but especially in the last year or two since our champions have been hitting R3/4 and now R5. In order to revive and fully heal an un-boosted R4 costs something like 120 units, depending on the health pool, and even more if the champion is boosted. As the potion economy currently stands cases it's actually worth allowing boosts to expire - depending on the boosts you're using -before healing a champion. Using the free potions from 4 hour crystals it takes an average of about 10 crystals to heal a champion from a 40% revive (assuming you're a Paragon), using the lv3 from RoL it takes about 15 or so.
The potion situation being so ludicrous is one of the reasons that revives are farmed in the way that they are: players can't afford to spend the units to heal their champions up, or have the time to spend hours and hours farming RoL for lv3 potions to heal. It's far more efficient to just farm revives and use 20% revives.
Solution: Health potions should be % based, starting with 10% for lv1, up to a 60% heal for lv6.
2 - Difficult content is being designed to make you revive. If you look at AoL upon release that was a piece of content that came with a hard ceiling on the amount of damage that you could do per hit - 85k - and a hard ceiling on the amount of hits you could do, depending on the power level of the champion ~240 hits. Unless you're using someone like Prof X, or Stryfe using a heavy-only playstyle soloing any of the fights was next to impossible, and it still is for many of the champions in the game no matter what their power level is now. This is a design philosophy that has continued into the Carinas Challenges, V1 was full of punitive challenges like the Star Lord challenge which is impossible to do without an enormous amount of revives, V2 isn't quite as bad though the Carina's Challengers challenge is still a revive fiesta. Carina V3 was designed to force you to revive multiple times per fight - there's only one of the Challenges where Peni isn't a total revive fiesta (CMM), for example.
Solution: The design philosophy needs to change. There's a difference between hard and impossible content. Much of Carina V3, AoL (At least on release) is impossible content and people just aren't keen on the idea of spending 2-3k units to do a challenge or a single line in a quest.
The revive farm is a consequence of negligence of reviewing the potion ecosystem and making sure that a reasonable amount of account potions are available in endgame content. I’m not talking about ground breaking things here but a revive every other quest on a single line that doesn’t refresh would be a huge upgrade. Including heal pots that are relevant to the story content. This doesn’t meant L3 (1500 go revives in TB difficulty, gtfoh with that) but maybe L5s on an Act8 line. Another option would be to changed pots to % based pots, then maybe a L1 might be something of relevance to all players. Rather than less than 1% of a 6star R5 HP… again gtfoh with that.
Additionally it’s a consequence of unreasonable objectives that aren’t designed to be challenging yet fun like EoP but instead are design to consume resources in punishing fashion that requires a level of Masochism to push through, as you know that no amount of skill makes that content possible
People used the same excuse for spamming the Act 1 Rev.
Please explain how this is a relevant comment to the ideas presented here, because it’s not it’s a derailment if reasonable ideas, and it shouldn’t be allowed
Huh?
How does something from years ago relate to current potions not being useful or content that is designed to consume more potions than you can carry? It wasn’t relevant to either point being discussed, it’s a derailment, you are derailing those 2 ideas with your comment. So I’d like us to go back to those 2 ideas if you’d like to continue discussions with me, otherwise Good Afternoon.
How does something that was for newer Players being milked relate to something that was for newer Players being milked now? Do I need to explain that? The same justifications were being used, the percentage, the content, the bugs, the P2W.....
Except that’s not the conversation you are quoting. Do I need to explain that? Moving on…
Yes it was. The conversation was justifying the farming situation with the state of Revives. The reality is, wherever Players can find an easy advantage, they'll take full advantage. Which is fine, unless it becomes a problem. It's become a problem.
Revive farming has become a problem in a game that has content that requires you to spam revives? This isn't dark souls where players can win the game by simply not getting hit and playing perfectly. This game has content in it that cannot be done WITHOUT spamming upwards of 30-40 revives.
As interesting as that aspect is, I'm going to avoid talking about that because I feel it's a rabbit hole, but there is certain content that requires some Reviving, and then there is content Players brute-forced through beyond their capabilities. There are a number of Players on the Forum that have done content with much less than "spamming". Perhaps not myself, but it's been done. To the point, we're not talking about people using Revives to do content. We're talking about an in-game availability that has a much higher percentage than they intend to have. They've also indicated that farming will still be possible, but at a reduced rate. People are reacting as if they've taken away every possible source for Revives. That's not at all the case. They're adjusting the lowest content that people have been "spamming" for easy Revs. There are many ways to acquire them, and we can save them up as we've always done. Perhaps more, since they're looking at holding limitations. What the primary issue is, is repeating the lowest content to spawn a high chance for them. That's never been the intention of those Revs. All this business about trying to squeeze money and F2P vs. P2P is completely off from the issue. If there's an area of the earlier Acts that is designed to help people starting out, and it's become an easy street for higher-end content, that's a problem. So they're making small changes to make it less advantageous to do that. That's it.
Comments
And anyway, Act 1 to 3 are not meant to be done by Paragon Players, they are meant to be done by people progressing the game, the fact that you could do it doesnt mean that it is meant to be done.
And again, Everest content is still meant to be hard, so you have to prepare yourself for a determinated time to do it, if everyone is able to do it the first day spamming revives, that makes Everest Content just another normal content for every but where you have to farm revives and have Herc to be able to do it.
Maybe Kabam could just put a node like "Hercules gets Sealed Fate and he gets a Degen of 100% HP in 30 seconds" so people dont abuse him? Maybe, but that doesnt mean that you should be able to do Everest content the first day.
This is not a bad change, I think it is necessary, but this change should come with Bug fixes so players dont have to waste more revives than needed and with the resources cap being upgraded with progression so Paragon players have maybe 30 cap instead of 15, because Everest content needs to be done with revives.
And anyway, Kabam didnt say that they are making those Acts between 1 to 3 to have no revives, they said they are going to nerf it so that you cant just get 50 revives in one day spamming the same quest over and over, which is, objectively, a good change for the game.
And as someone stated before, if you want to do the hardest content in game the day it releases, that is a you problem, because it isnt meant to be done the first day.
"Yeah but Lagacy did it and it took an insane amount of revives and he is very very good"
Yeah, Lags is a very skilled player, but he is a content creator, he does it the first day because it is his job to do so, and as he himself stated, he was not prepared really to do it at that point so he used more revives than needed, and as I showed before, there are players that are able to do EoP itself with less than 25 revives.
Seriously I dont know how the hell everyone is this annoyed about needing revives constantly, I didnt know that everybody has every content of the game done so they can just do Carinas Challenges and the new content that comes out, looks like everybody did Abyss already, and explored all acts and Variants, so their only content left is Carinas Challenges, damn, you guys are either so good or you play the game all day.
And seriously, there is a lot of people that does those Challenges with less than 30 revives, if there are people that can do it with that amount, you can too, if you need more revives than you should then you should farm units or spend on the game, you want to be a f2p still? Arenas are your friends, farm units and buy revive deals when they come out so you can do the Carinas Challenges.
Everyone is acting like now you have to waste units on revives like you wont have revives by playing the game when thats not the case, you are going to have enough revives to do the content, but you are not going to be able to have 100 in 2 days.
I still think this is not the moment to do this change, since the bugs make you use revives even if you shouldnt, fix the bugs first, then make this changes.
My only problem maybe with the change is the quality of the new Daily Quest rewards, it should be adapted to the progression levels, and make the cap bigger, with that little tweaks the change is good enough to be applied.
And anyway, Act 1 to 3 are not meant to be done by Paragon Players, they are meant to be done by people progressing the game, the fact that you could do it doesnt mean that it is meant to be done.
And again, Everest content is still meant to be hard, so you have to prepare yourself for a determinated time to do it, if everyone is able to do it the first day spamming revives, that makes Everest Content just another normal content for every but where you have to farm revives and have Herc to be able to do it.
Maybe Kabam could just put a node like "Hercules gets Sealed Fate and he gets a Degen of 100% HP in 30 seconds" so people dont abuse him? Maybe, but that doesnt mean that you should be able to do Everest content the first day.
This is not a bad change, I think it is necessary, but this change should come with Bug fixes so players dont have to waste more revives than needed and with the resources cap being upgraded with progression so Paragon players have maybe 30 cap instead of 15, because Everest content needs to be done with revives.
And anyway, Kabam didnt say that they are making those Acts between 1 to 3 to have no revives, they said they are going to nerf it so that you cant just get 50 revives in one day spamming the same quest over and over, which is, objectively, a good change for the game.
And as someone stated before, if you want to do the hardest content in game the day it releases, that is a you problem, because it isnt meant to be done the first day.
"Yeah but Lagacy did it and it took an insane amount of revives and he is very very good"
Yeah, Lags is a very skilled player, but he is a content creator, he does it the first day because it is his job to do so, and as he himself stated, he was not prepared really to do it at that point so he used more revives than needed, and as I showed before, there are players that are able to do EoP itself with less than 25 revives.
Seriously I dont know how the hell everyone is this annoyed about needing revives constantly, I didnt know that everybody has every content of the game done so they can just do Carinas Challenges and the new content that comes out, looks like everybody did Abyss already, and explored all acts and Variants, so their only content left is Carinas Challenges, damn, you guys are either so good or you play the game all day.
And seriously, there is a lot of people that does those Challenges with less than 30 revives, if there are people that can do it with that amount, you can too, if you need more revives than you should then you should farm units or spend on the game, you want to be a f2p still? Arenas are your friends, farm units and buy revive deals when they come out so you can do the Carinas Challenges.
Everyone is acting like now you have to waste units on revives like you wont have revives by playing the game when thats not the case, you are going to have enough revives to do the content, but you are not going to be able to have 100 in 2 days.
I still think this is not the moment to do this change, since the bugs make you use revives even if you shouldnt, fix the bugs first, then make this changes.
My only problem maybe with the change is the quality of the new Daily Quest rewards, it should be adapted to the progression levels, and make the cap bigger, with that little tweaks the change is good enough to be applied.
Just to get my name tag out phone going wild
Problem solved...
That doesn't account for how fast people go after it and the vices they use to get it.
A store can advertise a shiny, new sportscar. I can either work towards it, save money moderately, and eventually buy the car. I can also sell everything I own, swindle and take advantage of any unscrupulous opportunity to make money, and buy it as fast as humanly possible. Both cases, that shiny, new sportscar is just a car on a lot.
Going in with the change of revive farming should ever be acceptable only if they will REWORK Abyss and Labyrinth of Legends and will agree on NEVER designing such end-game content ever again. And they should reconsider the design of many other pieces of content then.
They claim that revive spam trivializes content, when in reality it is something that makes it possible to complete in the first place.
Take "Mike's revenge" with 3 star Cyclops for example. With the way how collector designed, doing this challenge in less than 20-30 revives is downright impossible even for very skilled players. Imbalance of stats, decrease of ability accuracy, random healing/unstoppable and unblockable specials - all contributes to create lose/lose/lose situation where regardless of how well you're doing you still fated to die and pushed into spamming revives as main way to progress the boss fight.
That was just one example of challenge that is based around idea of "throwing enough revives onto enemy till it dies" - and many more of them still exist. If they were opposed to the idea of throwing revives as way of playing the game, they would not torture the playerbase with such atrocities.
But they never were against this. In fact, their post just highlights that they wanted it to happen and they want to MONETIZE IT.
This frenzied revive farming trivializes difficult content like Carina’s Challenges and Eternity of Pain...."
I mean, let's all just be completely honest here; there's 1 reason and 1 reason alone why this is being done, and it's not the trivialization of difficult content.
You're perfectly fine with us clearing difficult content by "spamming revives"......
You just don't want us able to do it without opening our wallets.
The heal pots are completely irrelevant these days, inventory caps don’t adequately address this. The amount of HP per a potion needs a strong and sincere look. I’m optimistic that this is an active discussion based on things DLL mentioned today. My hat is off to him, such a great stand up dude. Honestly can’t say enough nice things about how he responded to questions on this topic today. It makes me less cynical about providing feedback and maybe there can be a reasonable follow up. Offering L1s isn’t that. That really is an insult, unless L1s go through some type of dramatic change.
I’m hopeful that caps do go up, that would be nice to see, but it’s not enough on its own. I’d also prefer to see more relevant potions in content like EQ. I’d be happy if it worked like act 7 and 8 on a node with no refreshes. I wanna play the content anyways, if I could get 5-10 revives and/or heal pots that way I’d consider it an improvement over mindless farming.
Leave the cap, leave the expiry time and leave the revive grind. Stop making issues when it’s not needed - you’re making drama on something that players want and need.
Kabam - scrap it. All I want to see now is you to update us that you’re going to take it all on board and leave it as it is.
Job done - you’re welcome.
First off, I understand the need to tone down revive farming. Being able to easily farm >100 revives is excessive, and should probably be rebalanced. However, in the currently stated implementation, the Apothecary is, in my opinion, a horrible solution. Why does the easy difficulty even exist? A single lv1 and lv2 potion is essentially worthless for anyone who's played the game for more than 20 minutes. The only possible reason anyone will even look at the easy difficulty is to see if they got a lucky revive spawn that day. To the dedicated few who check the easy difficulty for a revive every single day, they will be rewarded with a single revive for every 100 quests. At 5 quest refreshes a week, this means that if you check every day, you would get the lucky drop on average once every 5 months or so.
Additionally, with optimal farming, the new system caps out at about 50 farmed revives, assuming one manages their farming perfectly. Realistically, most people will probably cap out in the lower 40s of farmed revives. I don't think that is enough. Before revive farming was a thing, content was absolutely designed to use less revives, and I hope that once it has gone away, quest design can return to this form. However, that still leaves a glaring issue.
Difficult content from the past few years has been developed around revive farming. The average player will need to use many revives, often far more than the 50 softcap proposed. The most egregious example of this is the Dance Off Carina's Challenge. While Abyss, EoP, Gauntlet, and the like can be made cheaper with stronger champions and lots of practice, the same is not true for this challenge. All fights are limited by the rage timer, and there is simply no way around that, unless the relevant champions get buffed in the future. I don't think this challenge is even possible with 50 revives, and that extends to quite a lot of other content as well. I am not the most skilled player, but I would consider myself above average. None of my abyss paths have cost less than 50 revives, and the Carina's Challengers path cost me more than 100 (although I did do path 4, one of the hardest for that team). This content will become unapproachable for the majority of players, especially as rewards depreciate in value. I would absolutely complete all of Carina's v1 if I could farm the resources for it, but I'm not sure I can justify spending thousands of units just for my completionism. The only way to do this sort of content without an obscene cost is to save up months worth of free crystals, which is heavily reliant on RNG. For content designed around a high revive usage, the only way to do it cheaply is to rely even more on RNG, which you cite as a major reason for removing farming.
I think the maximum amount of farmable revives needs to be increased from the current design. Some ideas I have had:
1)Increase revives obtainable in the Apothecary. If 2 revives were obtainable every day, the farmed revive softcap would increase to 60. Even that would go a long way towards making current revive sinks attainable in the future.
2) Make lv2 revives farmable, perhaps at a slower rate. Maybe on the weekends instead of having no Apothecary, there's an improved version that awards a lv2 revive. This increases the maximum amount of revives that can be farmed, but only if the player is willing to prepare some time in advance.
3) An idea I have been thinking through is some way of banking revives inside a quest. What if you could transfer some number of revives from your inventory into a specific quest. Those revives no longer take up inventory space, instead, they can only be used in the quest where they are banked. Once the quest is completed, any remaining revives in the bank are lost. This could be enabled only for specific quests, and could provide a way of keeping current revive-heavy content feasible while still being able to design future content for a reduced number of revives. For instance, perhaps the abyss would allow 25 revives to be banked inside it. If you are prepping for an abyss path, you can effectively farm 75 revives for it, by banking 25 in the abyss quest, and farming the other 50 normally.
Farming takes time and resources. There is a clear give and take. For my effort farming, I get to have a stress free experience while I have fun clearing difficult content. I don't see how that hurts the game. I'd argue that this has helped keep players around longer. There are plenty of games where farming low level content is an effective way to level up and/or progress, so it's not like MCOC players have broken the system by doing the same.
Typically, if I'm farming revives, I'm spending units on energy refills. I could hoard those units to spend on holiday deals, but instead I choose to farm and complete content. That means I have to buy more units when holiday deals come around. That's more money in Kabam's pocket, because without farming, I do not have a good enough incentive to spend units at any other time. The value simply is not there.
Kabam, in the future, if you feel the need to make massive changes, it would be awesome if you would open up a discussion on it before making any final decisions and telling us how it is going to be from now on. You need us, and considering how most of us can't stop playing no matter what you do, it seems we need you. Moving forward, let us have some input and maybe we can avoid mass outrage like this again.
With that said I’m very surprised with how many players that are shocked about the fact that Kabam wants to monetize this game even more. Of course they want to.
They are a company with one purpose and one alone, to generate profit to its owners.
To think otherwise is just ignorant. They have created a product that people want and will try to make as much money out of it as they can. If the big numbers drops the game will be terminated.
Many players are also upset that Kabam don’t care about their player base and in some ways they don’t have to. So it’s not that strange.
When celebrating 7 years they posted a video whee they stated that they had like 270 million players (if memory serves me). So as long as there is an inflow of players they don’t have to care about the average player that much, there is always new players joining the game with no knowledge about what has happened. Just happy to play with a will to spend.
Therefore shouts that “I quit” has very little impact.
So stop being surprised that kabam does what they exist to do.
BUT there is business and there is business and in my opinion they are just doing it so wrong right now.
Making a gamechanging move for many players and trying to motivate it with “it’s for your own good”. When clearly it’s because it hurts their business. It’s just signals that they think most players are imbecile. Otherwise they would have made revive farming with units harder as well.
My guess next move will be “we have found a solution. We will increase the inventory in the summoners sigil. Just pay up and you won’t have a problem”.
So if solo cries don’t do much, then maybe the big mass of players joining together like this can have an impact and kabam takes this back to the drawing table.
For the sake of the game we all love.
A better solution is to make better content - I believe the original champion fight was one of best fights ever made - yes difficult, needed high skill and no amount of revives could buy you through it.
People Moaned about this being a roadblock and we lost that fight, replaced with long fights that not matter skill require you to revive, see SL carina as perfect example.
Answer - make more fights Like the original champion and test people’s skill and can save the dev time to fix the many bugs we seem to be ignoring
I recently started spending again after saying I was going to not spend this year. I did it because it was fun and a good escape. I enjoyed the pay-to-win strategy and was fine that there were people way ahead of me because their spend meant the game would keep going.
The one thing I won’t do is pay-to-play. I quit playing Raid for this exact reason. Once I stopped spending it was too hard to do anything or would require being on a majority of the day.
To some spending their money for revives or whatever is fine for them
To others spending their time to farm revives or whatever is fine for them
Saying 1 is better then the other to me is well stupid. You are still spending something to get those revives rather it be your time or your money
Kabam needs to find a better balance. Saying ok we don’t want you to farm any at all so here a quest that you can do 6 days a week for 1 20% revive and we also don’t want you to depend on rng to get those revives but here is an extra 1% chance at 20% revive and 5% chance at a 40% is well stupid
To the point, we're not talking about people using Revives to do content. We're talking about an in-game availability that has a much higher percentage than they intend to have. They've also indicated that farming will still be possible, but at a reduced rate.
People are reacting as if they've taken away every possible source for Revives. That's not at all the case. They're adjusting the lowest content that people have been "spamming" for easy Revs. There are many ways to acquire them, and we can save them up as we've always done. Perhaps more, since they're looking at holding limitations.
What the primary issue is, is repeating the lowest content to spawn a high chance for them. That's never been the intention of those Revs.
All this business about trying to squeeze money and F2P vs. P2P is completely off from the issue. If there's an area of the earlier Acts that is designed to help people starting out, and it's become an easy street for higher-end content, that's a problem.
So they're making small changes to make it less advantageous to do that. That's it.