We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
@Kabam Miike I understand where you are coming from, but why can’t we get a fix for the issues affecting the players? Like Ghost’s intercept being blocked/parried in AW, Corvus’ coldsnap immunity not working on freezerburn nodes, the title notification not going away for summoners sigil title, etc. Why do all the “bug” fixes seem so lopsided?
It's not like we're not trying to fix those bugs as well. Some of them are just easier to investifate/identify/fix than others. In this case, it was fixing the speed in which She-Hulk starts her Heavy attack, which was faster than all other Champions.
There are many champs that have different heavy speeds. For example Hyperion’s heavy seems to be a lot longer than most champs. Don’t believe it? Just test it on a limber node it gets to a point where he can’t parry and heavy anymore but that point seems to be a lot earlier than a lot of champs...
Not the actual length of the Heavy Attack, but the time in which it takes to activate it. If you think Hyperion's is too slow, we can take a look to see if it's not working correctly.
Please do take a look at Hyperion's heavy, it's definitely slower to activate than many other champs and if that gets sped up he'd likely be my next r5 5*.
We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
@Kabam Miike I understand where you are coming from, but why can’t we get a fix for the issues affecting the players? Like Ghost’s intercept being blocked/parried in AW, Corvus’ coldsnap immunity not working on freezerburn nodes, the title notification not going away for summoners sigil title, etc. Why do all the “bug” fixes seem so lopsided?
It's not like we're not trying to fix those bugs as well. Some of them are just easier to investifate/identify/fix than others. In this case, it was fixing the speed in which She-Hulk starts her Heavy attack, which was faster than all other Champions.
You gotta see how this looks right? YT videos have been out for months about this when She Hulk was first used to beat 6.2 Champion as well as probably countless forum posts and reddit posts about how effective she was for that piece of end game content.
Plenty of opportunities for a mod to poke their head in and say this wasn't intended and being looked into but instead this went on for months and people used their hard to acquire rank up materials unaware until just now.
Unintended or not, communication needs to be a lot better and the transparency has been lacking for years now.
This. This right here. It's mindblowing that this company hasn't figured out how important this is. The 12.0 fiasco should have been more than an eye-opening moment, but here we are.
We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
Honestly, people should get more than an apology here, Miike.
This was a specific mechanic known throughout the community for a while and a significant attribute of the champ. You guys need to be more attuned to what is happening in game and make “fixes” like this out of the gate, not months later.
I dodged this bullet and used mine at R3 for 6.2 content. But anyone who used their hard-to-get materials on her should get them back and then some.
Dr. Zola
This was not a mechanic of this Champion, and was not mentioned as one. All Champions have the same speed and cadence to their Attacks, and no Champion should be able to combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability.
If that is true, shouldn't every champ be able to use a sp1 or sp2 after a combo? Why some of them can't?
And don't tell me you are not aware of this when you said you would change the old captain marvel sp2 because of that.
They all should be able to, and if they are not, that is a bug that should be reported. If you look back through the changelog, you'll see that we fix those issues when they arise. So if you see one that isn't consistently working, let us know!
Moonknight and Phoenix can’t chain special after combo. You can check the bug section in the old forum if you want to see how old is this bug (You broke their ability to chain special while you tried to fix it for other champs)
Not the actual length of the Heavy Attack, but the time in which it takes to activate it. If you think Hyperion's is too slow, we can take a look to see if it's not working correctly.
Wow this comment actually scares me a bit. Do you really think this is true? Because this leads me to believe that the team doesn't understand how the game mechanics have been working for a long time.
Again please really talk this over with the team and try to really understand how this impacts a lot of the players who currently play the game using this mechanic.
We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
@Kabam Miike I understand where you are coming from, but why can’t we get a fix for the issues affecting the players? Like Ghost’s intercept being blocked/parried in AW, Corvus’ coldsnap immunity not working on freezerburn nodes, the title notification not going away for summoners sigil title, etc. Why do all the “bug” fixes seem so lopsided?
It's not like we're not trying to fix those bugs as well. Some of them are just easier to investifate/identify/fix than others. In this case, it was fixing the speed in which She-Hulk starts her Heavy attack, which was faster than all other Champions.
You gotta see how this looks right? YT videos have been out for months about this when She Hulk was first used to beat 6.2 Champion as well as probably countless forum posts and reddit posts about how effective she was for that piece of end game content.
Plenty of opportunities for a mod to poke their head in and say this wasn't intended and being looked into but instead this went on for months and people used their hard to acquire rank up materials unaware until just now.
Unintended or not, communication needs to be a lot better and the transparency has been lacking for years now.
couldn't agree more with this @Kabam Miike not intended? OK. fair. the issue is how those who have ranked her up recently (post buff) are left. think if how they feel moving forward right now. you need to put yourself in the shoes of those who ranked her based on what they saw in discussion, youtube videos...all content thats been found on this forum!!! with no indication that this was a bug, or not intended its just unfair that rank up resources were burned. im sure the game team understands how valuable and rare r4 and r5 resources are right now. im genuinely hoping you do right and allow us to move forward with the resources that have now been burned on she hulk.
Only a bug when it helps the player base. It’s not like there wasn’t 100 videos on YouTube showing this ability soloing the Champion on 6.2. What? Not enough money is being spent to beat him?
OK. Guys. I am VERY reluctant to call anything a nerf, or to assume that Kabam is just trying to ruin the game, or whatever. For example, the Sym Supreme thing is neither a nerf or a fix. Same goes for a lot of things like that.
But this. This is a load of rubbish. She's had that ability literally for ever. That was one of her defining characteristics. Multiple champs can do that, but she was able to do it most consistently and effectively. Maybe this wasn't "INTENDED" but lots of champs have abilities that are built into their animations. For example, Korg and many others are powerful defenders partially because of their difficult to evade Special attacks. Certain champs are easier to intercept with due to quicker movement. Others have difficulty evading due to their short dash backs. The only reason Venom is intimidating at all is his animations. This was a great interaction. You should've left it alone.
Thank goodness I don't spend on this game, or I'd be really mad. This was her whole thing. She was able to counter some of the most annoying fights around, but certainly wasn't viable everywhere (for example AW or champs with impossible to evade SP1s). But I guess this will increase your sales of health potions ...
I DO understand that the white knights will all come here and say this was a YEARS old "bug" that is being fixed, but time and time again we have seen these changes happen to the detriment of the summoners (GP, NC, and now SheHulk).
This really needs to get squashed. There's no such thing as a bug that is to the benefit of the players as a whole or to the detriment of the players as a whole. The She-Hulk bug benefits *some* players, and that means it is to the detriment of all the other players. And no bug is to the benefit or the detriment of Kabam itself.
Power and difficulty in the game are relative. The content in the game is targeted at player averages. When the players get collectively stronger, the content gets more difficult and vice versa. Games like this are driven by datamining that tells the developers when they need to increase or decrease difficulty. In a real sense, the game's difficulty is graded on a curve.
When a performance bug "helps" players it only helps some players most of the time, and because content is designed on a curve, in the long run those bugs hurt everyone else. That's why bugs and exploits need to be fixed when they happen: they offer an unintended advantage to some players *over* other players who are then disadvantaged. And because difficulty is graded on a curve, that disadvantage gets ultimately translated into a real penalty over time.
The idea that any bug can "harm" Kabam in this kind of sense is ridiculous. If the players get more power than intended, Kabam just makes the difficulty higher to compensate That's what they are constantly doing anyway. In the long run, it doesn't matter to the game, or to Kabam's revenues, or anything like that. The *only* people harmed by bugs are the players. Either the bug directly harms the players in obvious ways, or it helps a subset of players in an obvious way and indirectly harms everyone else in an unobvious way.
This bug harms players. It just does so in a less obvious way. But the people thinking it shouldn't be fixed are literally like students realizing some people are getting the answers to the test by accident and doing better than they would, and cheering them on not realizing the tests are graded on a curve and every student not getting the answers is automatically getting a worse grade.
And sure, this will draw name calling and a bunch of meaningless disagrees, but if this causes even one out of a hundred people reading it to actually think about the situation instead of just blindly reacting to it, it's worth it.
I DO understand that the white knights will all come here and say this was a YEARS old "bug" that is being fixed, but time and time again we have seen these changes happen to the detriment of the summoners (GP, NC, and now SheHulk).
This really needs to get squashed. There's no such thing as a bug that is to the benefit of the players as a whole or to the detriment of the players as a whole. The She-Hulk bug benefits *some* players, and that means it is to the detriment of all the other players. And no bug is to the benefit or the detriment of Kabam itself.
Power and difficulty in the game are relative. The content in the game is targeted at player averages. When the players get collectively stronger, the content gets more difficult and vice versa. Games like this are driven by datamining that tells the developers when they need to increase or decrease difficulty. In a real sense, the game's difficulty is graded on a curve.
When a performance bug "helps" players it only helps some players most of the time, and because content is designed on a curve, in the long run those bugs hurt everyone else. That's why bugs and exploits need to be fixed when they happen: they offer an unintended advantage to some players *over* other players who are then disadvantaged. And because difficulty is graded on a curve, that disadvantage gets ultimately translated into a real penalty over time.
The idea that any bug can "harm" Kabam in this kind of sense is ridiculous. If the players get more power than intended, Kabam just makes the difficulty higher to compensate That's what they are constantly doing anyway. In the long run, it doesn't matter to the game, or to Kabam's revenues, or anything like that. The *only* people harmed by bugs are the players. Either the bug directly harms the players in obvious ways, or it helps a subset of players in an obvious way and indirectly harms everyone else in an unobvious way.
This bug harms players. It just does so in a less obvious way. But the people thinking it shouldn't be fixed are literally like students realizing some people are getting the answers to the test by accident and doing better than they would, and cheering them on not realizing the tests are graded on a curve and every student not getting the answers is automatically getting a worse grade.
And sure, this will draw name calling and a bunch of meaningless disagrees, but if this causes even one out of a hundred people reading it to actually think about the situation instead of just blindly reacting to it, it's worth it.
I understand what you are saying but the problem is the way they handle the bugs.
While in some cases like the CM sp2 or the skill mastery they acknowledge about the bug and don't fix it, in this case they never even say it's a bug and than they fix it.
If Kabam thinks this change is for the better good of the game, I am fine with that as an answer. Where I continue to struggle with this though is all the people who spent resources on a champ are now SOL.
Picture it like buying a BMW, then a couple months later the dealership randomly taking the engine out of it and putting in a corolla engine. Then to top it off, the dealership then tries to sell you on the idea that even though you "thought" you bought a BMW, it was not our intention to actually sell you what you thought you were getting. And then not allowing you to return or trade in the car you bought. It just does not make any sense.
Btw, what's about heavys range? Like one champ, day hype, can heavy counter imiw heavy, but domino can't? And some have heavy that even hype can't counter. Should they all not be able to do so? And then only champs with true strike would work vs imiw, could bring you more money on wars, you know
@Kabam Miike somtimes I’m really wish you guys play the game or alest the dev ther try to make the game you guys do not make things esay only hates can’t just put this out and the guy ther use a she hulk rank2 use that method it stil take skil to do so not that it esay all the skil we build you just destroy who next ghost shuld not be meant to counterattacks from phess. Can see that coming in a few mouch just so u guys can change meta. Not fair. Migt as well call the mcoc og skil to get destroyed from kabam dev ikow you only need to bring it to them but this definitely doesn’t sound good how you just saw oh you can kil a stak champion with she hulk was intended but who care as long u hav the skil to do it. Now you guys just ruined it really tierd if all this bs change
If this was a fix for a bug why was it never posted or discussed in the known issues thread or anywhere in bugs page. Totally agree with everyone that says this is coming out of nowhere and think it is for sure a nerf to she-hulk.
Oh look a post from earlier today about a champ that’s been able to do the particular thing for 3 years. If anything one would assume that it’s a bug that she CAN’T chain heavies anymore because you’ve been able to do it for so long and we’ve had no mention of it being a bug
The changelog LITERALLY said: She Hulk: Fixed an issue where she could combo into an heavy attack. It was a bug fix, and this is not an opinion, but a fact.
Nope. She's always had this ability, even pre-buff. This is a nerf.
Ahaha. The latest Summoner showdown thread even acknowledges the use of SH in Champion takedown which uses this so call bug.
Thank you for sharing... This really sheds some light on this subject. Kabam even showcases a summoner in their contest tournament using a bug to take down the mighty 6.2 Champion boss...
We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
You change the abilities of Symbiote sumpreme right? You made it 50% because he is working like that for over a year.
Maybe is time to change the abilities of shehulk.. because is working like that for over 3 years.. make it as one of her abilities.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
<\blockquote>
“This was not something that was listed as an ability”. What about Symbiote Supreme?! His abilities WERE listed yet you CHANGED HIS DESCRIPTION to match his abilities. The way you guys do business at Kabam is disturbing. I will no longer spend my hard earned money here. It’s just too risky.
Also I wonder if those who buffed shehulk thought if it was intended. If yes, please put him in charge of the game, cause after buff till now she was beautiful in terms of design. Or if that person reads it, please make another game, deeper and better than mcoc, so I could have a place to leave
So you change Symbiote Supreme’s description, but change She Hulk’s abilities. In both cases hurting the players with absolutely no compensation? The way Kabam does business is disturbing. No other company in the world falsely advertises their products so blatantly. I will no longer be spending my hard earned money here. It’s just too risky, you never know what you’re getting.
We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
You change the abilities of Symbiote sumpreme right? You made it 50% because he is working like that for over a year.
Maybe is time to change the abilities of shehulk.. because is working like that for over 3 years.. make it as one of her abilities.
Right?
No. The Description was wrong. They discussed changing him to match it, and came to the conclusion that it would be too OP.
We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
Honestly, people should get more than an apology here, Miike.
This was a specific mechanic known throughout the community for a while and a significant attribute of the champ. You guys need to be more attuned to what is happening in game and make “fixes” like this out of the gate, not months later.
I dodged this bullet and used mine at R3 for 6.2 content. But anyone who used their hard-to-get materials on her should get them back and then some.
Dr. Zola
This was not a mechanic of this Champion, and was not mentioned as one. All Champions have the same speed and cadence to their Attacks, and no Champion should be able to combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability.
Miike:
I actually think there are distinct differences in the way different champs move—on attack, “high leg kick” champs like Magik have an easier time executing the backdraft intercept. That’s much tougher with other champs who have a different move set. On dash back, some champs have shallower or deeper evade.
Those are two immediate examples related to the cadence of how champs move that come to mind, and there are probably others. This may not be intentional, but it is how the game works for us as players on this end—the moveset and it’s cadence is definitely not universal.
As for champ descriptions, they don’t mention every permutation of the way champs work, and it’s probably unfair of us to ask that they do so because of the thousands of interactions between champs. But every day, players discover something new about champs and their synergies and abilities—that’s part of the fun of the game.
Where those discoveries threaten to exploit the game and make it unfair, it’s reasonable to resolve them. She-Hulk’s heavy hardly counts as an exploit—there’s no endless ability to chain heavies (GwenPool) nor is there ridiculous damage output (Cull). It’s actually a pretty cool ability that can sometimes be very useful.
Ultimately, I dislike the decision because it’s unnecessary for game balance and I think it makes gameplay decisions look arbitrary and capricious to its devoted players. That’s not good for any of us.
What a load. I'm not usually one to cry about compensation, but that was her biggest ability. Put her in the top three ROL options, and probably top ten champs. People ranked her up just for that. This is time for compensation.
Comments
Thanks in advance!
This. This right here. It's mindblowing that this company hasn't figured out how important this is. The 12.0 fiasco should have been more than an eye-opening moment, but here we are.
You can check the bug section in the old forum if you want to see how old is this bug
(You broke their ability to chain special while you tried to fix it for other champs)
Ahaha. The latest Summoner showdown thread even acknowledges the use of SH in Champion takedown which uses this so call bug.
Again please really talk this over with the team and try to really understand how this impacts a lot of the players who currently play the game using this mechanic.
not intended? OK. fair.
the issue is how those who have ranked her up recently (post buff) are left. think if how they feel moving forward right now.
you need to put yourself in the shoes of those who ranked her based on what they saw in discussion, youtube videos...all content thats been found on this forum!!!
with no indication that this was a bug, or not intended its just unfair that rank up resources were burned.
im sure the game team understands how valuable and rare r4 and r5 resources are right now. im genuinely hoping you do right and allow us to move forward with the resources that have now been burned on she hulk.
But this. This is a load of rubbish. She's had that ability literally for ever. That was one of her defining characteristics. Multiple champs can do that, but she was able to do it most consistently and effectively. Maybe this wasn't "INTENDED" but lots of champs have abilities that are built into their animations. For example, Korg and many others are powerful defenders partially because of their difficult to evade Special attacks. Certain champs are easier to intercept with due to quicker movement. Others have difficulty evading due to their short dash backs. The only reason Venom is intimidating at all is his animations. This was a great interaction. You should've left it alone.
Thank goodness I don't spend on this game, or I'd be really mad. This was her whole thing. She was able to counter some of the most annoying fights around, but certainly wasn't viable everywhere (for example AW or champs with impossible to evade SP1s). But I guess this will increase your sales of health potions ...
Never
Spend
On
This
Game
You will end up losing what you bought.
While in some cases like the CM sp2 or the skill mastery they acknowledge about the bug and don't fix it, in this case they never even say it's a bug and than they fix it.
It seems shady to me, to say the least.
Picture it like buying a BMW, then a couple months later the dealership randomly taking the engine out of it and putting in a corolla engine. Then to top it off, the dealership then tries to sell you on the idea that even though you "thought" you bought a BMW, it was not our intention to actually sell you what you thought you were getting. And then not allowing you to return or trade in the car you bought. It just does not make any sense.
As others have said, this is coming from way out of left field with no prior communication or acknowledgment.
I think Kabam needs to restore some good faith in the player base by doing the following.
1) issuing rank down tickets
2) extending the duration of her furies to partially offset the nerf
Maybe is time to change the abilities of shehulk.. because is working like that for over 3 years.. make it as one of her abilities.
Right?
I actually think there are distinct differences in the way different champs move—on attack, “high leg kick” champs like Magik have an easier time executing the backdraft intercept. That’s much tougher with other champs who have a different move set. On dash back, some champs have shallower or deeper evade.
Those are two immediate examples related to the cadence of how champs move that come to mind, and there are probably others. This may not be intentional, but it is how the game works for us as players on this end—the moveset and it’s cadence is definitely not universal.
As for champ descriptions, they don’t mention every permutation of the way champs work, and it’s probably unfair of us to ask that they do so because of the thousands of interactions between champs. But every day, players discover something new about champs and their synergies and abilities—that’s part of the fun of the game.
Where those discoveries threaten to exploit the game and make it unfair, it’s reasonable to resolve them. She-Hulk’s heavy hardly counts as an exploit—there’s no endless ability to chain heavies (GwenPool) nor is there ridiculous damage output (Cull). It’s actually a pretty cool ability that can sometimes be very useful.
Ultimately, I dislike the decision because it’s unnecessary for game balance and I think it makes gameplay decisions look arbitrary and capricious to its devoted players. That’s not good for any of us.
Dr. Zola