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Developers Thoughts: Improving Alliance Wars Discussion Thread

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    BeginthEndBeginthEnd Posts: 334
    edited October 2018
    This discussion is meant to constructively gather the ideas of those affected by the new changes being implemented. This also applies to those who may be affected in the near future by these same changes- or new ones like it.

    Please take a moment to consider how Kabam could address the concerns of all and make this game better. For everyone. Not just your champs, but God teir Champs, new champs (new players), and the core community.

    I am part of the core community. Back when 5* where just being introduced I was SO stoked. However.. when I pulled a 5* Collosus.. ouch.. followed by 5* Ant Man.. Rhino.. BP.. just OUCH. Couldn’t do anything with those champs if I wanted to.. maybe awakened? I finally got a Sparky. After all that n then some.

    Point is, when there were no 5*s, you’d be lucky to get Thor, who used to be a God. Easy to forget Doctor Strange was the BEST THERE EVER IS. Until they took away his doctorates degree, smashed his hands again and sold Dormammu his soul, now he’s worthless.

    So many garbage champs now.. partly because the meta does change. New champs are almost always stronger in some way, while older ones get stagnet or flat out nerfed.

    It’s not about luck or who you want to play with, it’s about when you choose to get the champ and whether or not that champ remains to be a good option. Will always be a better champ in the future though.

    How to fix this? Take away entire masteries like Mystic Disperion and Deep Wounds or just weaken the entire class? Not very cool and not a fix, that’s beating a dead horse to death, knowing it won’t bleed anymore.

    This is how you fix it. Allow people the opportunity to rank up any champ they have (in AW if that’s how Kabam wants it)

    Issue the “bad word” rank down tickets to players that deserve them, maybe people that really used bleed champ and the masteries that come with it. Same for MD and mystic. It’s long past due. Better yet, do it just for kicks, let people have fun re-diversifying their rosters and reuseing the hard earned rank up material. Everyone will still have to grind for the gold and ISO to rank them. Kabam keeps all the gold/iso used before. It’s a win/win.

    That’s just my “constructive” idea. Have a good idea or could maybe comment on how Kabam should fix known issues like account sharing, hacking, cheating, selling, etc?

    Post your constructive ideas here.
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    BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,320 ★★★★★
    People keep calling it a nerf, but that's not at all what it is. It's a rotating Node. Nothing is changing about the Champs themselves. As for buffs, they've done a few and no doubt there's room for more. However, I think the list that people consider useless/less effective is much higher than can reasonably be reworked. There's a tendency to discard anything not God Tier. Buffs have to be calculated and done carefully, and within balance of other progress. It's not a matter of just sweeping all the old Champs.

    When the game only allows you to max out 3-5 total champs after playing for 3+ years then the players HAVE to discard non god tier champs. It's a self inflicted problem, that they have total control over.

    Kabam, and many of their blind supporters on this forum, don't seem to understand that in a game like this any change, even a small one, has a huge impact on everyone. Of course people who are in tiers that won't change can speculate on how those changes will impact players, but they won't actually know.
    Yes, the impact is you can't rely in Bleed for a Season. Given your example, if all 3-5 rely on Bleed, that's more of a tactical issue than Resources. Personally, I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket, but that's how I Rank.
    In any case, there are many other options besides Bleed. No doubt 6*s have been acquired as well. I doubt they're all Bleed. Nor do you need to use a Max Champ. Point is, there are choices.
    The whole reaction is as if this is some type of permanent change. It's the first rotation. It's going to swap out. That's what I'm saying. The response is as if they've irreparably damaged Champs. It's a Node. One that won't stay indefinitely, and doesn't change the Champs at all. Still just as useful.
    For the record, there are quite a few other Debuffs. I don't care what Tier I'm in. I wouldn't rely on one alone. There's Incinerate, Shock, Armor Break, Degen, etc. That brings me back to my original point. People will survive. They'll just have to do something different. That's the real argument in my opinion. The same tactic can't be used indefinitely if the game mode wants to be challenging.

    Who are your 3-5 r5 5* champs again?

    How many times will you keep responding that way before you realize it's just old. If you want to have a serious discussion, try doing it on topic and without calling people out on what they have and don't have. Unless you can point out how my Roster pertains to a Global Node.

    If you stop making definitive statements on end game content I'll stop asking about you experience with end game content.

    Calling someone out about where they're at in the game doesn't give you more of a right to have an opinion on the subject, and it's not a very constructive way to have a debate. If you think your Roster and position in the game automatically makes you right and me wrong, prove it with points that pertain to my own. All that equates to in a discussion is an act of desperation.

    Your roster and position in the game don’t make you automatically wrong, they make your definitive statements about end game/Tier 1 content only conjecture since you don’t have personal experience and claim to not get information from YouTubers. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that people don’t value guesses and assumptions as much as firsthand knowledge.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,298 ★★★★★
    edited October 2018
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    People keep calling it a nerf, but that's not at all what it is. It's a rotating Node. Nothing is changing about the Champs themselves. As for buffs, they've done a few and no doubt there's room for more. However, I think the list that people consider useless/less effective is much higher than can reasonably be reworked. There's a tendency to discard anything not God Tier. Buffs have to be calculated and done carefully, and within balance of other progress. It's not a matter of just sweeping all the old Champs.

    When the game only allows you to max out 3-5 total champs after playing for 3+ years then the players HAVE to discard non god tier champs. It's a self inflicted problem, that they have total control over.

    Kabam, and many of their blind supporters on this forum, don't seem to understand that in a game like this any change, even a small one, has a huge impact on everyone. Of course people who are in tiers that won't change can speculate on how those changes will impact players, but they won't actually know.
    Yes, the impact is you can't rely in Bleed for a Season. Given your example, if all 3-5 rely on Bleed, that's more of a tactical issue than Resources. Personally, I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket, but that's how I Rank.
    In any case, there are many other options besides Bleed. No doubt 6*s have been acquired as well. I doubt they're all Bleed. Nor do you need to use a Max Champ. Point is, there are choices.
    The whole reaction is as if this is some type of permanent change. It's the first rotation. It's going to swap out. That's what I'm saying. The response is as if they've irreparably damaged Champs. It's a Node. One that won't stay indefinitely, and doesn't change the Champs at all. Still just as useful.
    For the record, there are quite a few other Debuffs. I don't care what Tier I'm in. I wouldn't rely on one alone. There's Incinerate, Shock, Armor Break, Degen, etc. That brings me back to my original point. People will survive. They'll just have to do something different. That's the real argument in my opinion. The same tactic can't be used indefinitely if the game mode wants to be challenging.

    Who are your 3-5 r5 5* champs again?

    How many times will you keep responding that way before you realize it's just old. If you want to have a serious discussion, try doing it on topic and without calling people out on what they have and don't have. Unless you can point out how my Roster pertains to a Global Node.

    If you stop making definitive statements on end game content I'll stop asking about you experience with end game content.

    Calling someone out about where they're at in the game doesn't give you more of a right to have an opinion on the subject, and it's not a very constructive way to have a debate. If you think your Roster and position in the game automatically makes you right and me wrong, prove it with points that pertain to my own. All that equates to in a discussion is an act of desperation.

    Actually, I presume anyone actually fighting in tiers 1 through 5 have a more informed opinion about the state of tiers 1 through 5. I wouldn't make strong statements about those tiers when I don't participate in them. I have a *general* opinion of those that I feel generally informed about, having seen them and talked to players that participate in them. But I think anyone speaking authoritatively about a part of the game they don't actually experience is being presumptuous. Everyone has a right to express an opinion, but that doesn't mean every opinion is equally interesting.

    That doesn't mean every person playing in those tiers is automatically right, but it does mean every person not playing in those tiers is on very shaky ground when talking about those tiers. The burden of proof is on them to demonstrate they are sufficiently well informed that their opinion is meaningful.

    It's something that takes place more than is necessary. It's almost always random and has nothing to do with the discussion directly. I've had the same encounter repeatedly with the individual. It's just calling someone out. I respect your input, but I'm not going to put a spin on people trying to bully me out of a conversation. If there's any aspect of what I'm saying they would like to debate, they can have at it. "You even Tier 1 bro?" isn't a constructive response.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,298 ★★★★★
    People keep calling it a nerf, but that's not at all what it is. It's a rotating Node. Nothing is changing about the Champs themselves. As for buffs, they've done a few and no doubt there's room for more. However, I think the list that people consider useless/less effective is much higher than can reasonably be reworked. There's a tendency to discard anything not God Tier. Buffs have to be calculated and done carefully, and within balance of other progress. It's not a matter of just sweeping all the old Champs.

    When the game only allows you to max out 3-5 total champs after playing for 3+ years then the players HAVE to discard non god tier champs. It's a self inflicted problem, that they have total control over.

    Kabam, and many of their blind supporters on this forum, don't seem to understand that in a game like this any change, even a small one, has a huge impact on everyone. Of course people who are in tiers that won't change can speculate on how those changes will impact players, but they won't actually know.
    Yes, the impact is you can't rely in Bleed for a Season. Given your example, if all 3-5 rely on Bleed, that's more of a tactical issue than Resources. Personally, I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket, but that's how I Rank.
    In any case, there are many other options besides Bleed. No doubt 6*s have been acquired as well. I doubt they're all Bleed. Nor do you need to use a Max Champ. Point is, there are choices.
    The whole reaction is as if this is some type of permanent change. It's the first rotation. It's going to swap out. That's what I'm saying. The response is as if they've irreparably damaged Champs. It's a Node. One that won't stay indefinitely, and doesn't change the Champs at all. Still just as useful.
    For the record, there are quite a few other Debuffs. I don't care what Tier I'm in. I wouldn't rely on one alone. There's Incinerate, Shock, Armor Break, Degen, etc. That brings me back to my original point. People will survive. They'll just have to do something different. That's the real argument in my opinion. The same tactic can't be used indefinitely if the game mode wants to be challenging.

    Who are your 3-5 r5 5* champs again?

    How many times will you keep responding that way before you realize it's just old. If you want to have a serious discussion, try doing it on topic and without calling people out on what they have and don't have. Unless you can point out how my Roster pertains to a Global Node.

    If you stop making definitive statements on end game content I'll stop asking about you experience with end game content.

    Calling someone out about where they're at in the game doesn't give you more of a right to have an opinion on the subject, and it's not a very constructive way to have a debate. If you think your Roster and position in the game automatically makes you right and me wrong, prove it with points that pertain to my own. All that equates to in a discussion is an act of desperation.

    How can you not admit that by not being an endgame player you don't actually know what it's like for endgame players?\

    I coach middle school football but I'm not trying to tell Bill Belichick how he should run the Patriots.

    Was I talking about how hard the Nodes are? Was I implying my own struggles? Did I say anything at all about my own experience in that Tier? No. I was talking about the changes to the Nodes and how there should be no logical reason why anyone at that stage shouldn't be capable of dealing with a Bleed Immunity Node. That's simple logic. I also talked about how any change will require adjusting. That's a general statement. I talked about how it would be an adjustment for some more than others. That's common sense.
    Being at the End-Game level doesn't somehow make people impervious to having to make adjustments to new content. That's a statement that applies to any Player. Something new comes, you have to adjust. Your questioning of my position in the game had nothing to do with what I was talking about. It was an attempt to devalue my points using your position. If you want to make such an attempt, it's probably better to do it with valid points within the context of a discussion. Otherwise it's just personal.
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    ShaggyMShaggyM Posts: 259 ★★★
    xulx90ifjzli.jpeg
    Then why not make these changes prior to the new season?
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    AxeCopFireAxeCopFire Posts: 1,115 ★★★
    BeginthEnd wrote: »
    This discussion is meant to constructively gather the ideas of those affected by the new changes being implemented.

    What changes?
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,298 ★★★★★
    Inigo wrote: »
    xulx90ifjzli.jpeg
    Then why not make these changes prior to the new season?

    That could be a good idea, actually. Might feel like less pressure.
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    DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 21,224 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    Demonzfyre wrote: »
    Kpatrix wrote: »
    borntohula wrote: »
    Playing at that level consistently means they will have more options. That's just a fact.

    Sigh. At times it seems you're not simply missing the gist of an argument, but purposefully avoiding it. Truth is, there aren't an infinite (or even a large) number of counters to specific alliance war nodes in higher tiers. Let alone to entire paths. And no, not everyone that is affected by this euphemism for 'we want you to spend more to clear your line' has a whole team of 5/5 champs on the bench.

    Me, I'm in a consistently Gold 1 alliance (yes, we're affected). Out of our 30 members, only three (!) have two (!) maxed out five stars. None of us has a rank 2 six star. And roughly half (I'd have to check) of the players make do with 5/4 and/or lower ranked champs. The 15 or so members who do have one or two maxed five stars, all ranked for the most difficult and potentially most profitable game-mode, AW. None of us ranked up champs specifically for other content. Mostly, because none of us really struggle in other content.

    Given that Blade and other bleeders (KM and AA, for instance) were among the best (few) AW offensive options, it stands to reason that most maxed those champs. So, to reiterate, for alliances at our level - not crazy high up there, just 'solid' Gold 1 - this little experiment doesn't hamper 'a few' of our top champs, but - in many cases - all of them. We hardly have any to begin with!

    And given that the number of counters to specific (successions of) nodes/champs on specific lines, is insanely limited, the only way for most of us to (maybe) still make it through, is by spending a ton of items. Would we like to use different champs? Sure, we would! But only if those stood a chance to succeed. Also, if you could lead the way to the pot of rank up materials at the end of your argumentative rainbow, that would be a great help.

    In short; you have no idea what you're talking about. And I don't think you care either.

    I know exactly what I'm talking about. The issue is people don't like hearing it. I specifically said that it would pose a problem for some. That's the point of the Node. To challenge people to rely on more than just Bleed. I didn't say everyone has everything they need to R5 a Roster immediately. Especially those at the bottom end of the demographic we are discussing. I said people have options. If all people depend on is Bleed throughout, that's a problem in and of itself. Considering that's only one Debuff. That's a byproduct of a majority only Ranking the same Champs. Yes, Resources are scarce. That's a different issue. The main point I'm making is it will take adjusting. At least for a Season. There's somehow an expectation that whatever change comes should entail little to no difference in how people play, and that's just not in touch with reality. Simply put, you have to do things differently to adjust to something different. I'm not even entertaining the idea that people have absolutely no options outside of Bleed. If so, that's because they expected to Rank one Team that would remain untouched no matter what they throw at people, and that's equally as unrealistic. The bottom line is, it's a rotating Node that some will have to put more effort into adjusting to than others, and that makes it no different than any other change that comes.
    I've been pretty respectful in that, considering the pointed implication that I don't know what I'm talking about. I could have just as easily said to be the best, you have to be able to adjust to anything. However, I try to operate with a tad more mindfulness than that.

    I would like to invite you to my alliance so you can experience first hand what we experience. We are gold one, tier 4-5 and the nodes get ridiculous against stronger teams. Hit me up in game if you really want to know the facts.

    Gold 1 isn't that difficult. I'm in Gold 1/plat 3 ally. Tier 3 wars are significantly harder war.

    Gold 1 is a bracket, so it is difficult to say anything about the difficulty in that bracket. I believe everything from really great tier 8 alliances to tier 3 alliances having a really bad week could find themselves in there, and the difficulty increases start to become non-linear above tier 9. Just the jump from tier 7 to tier 6 seems to be a dramatic jump upward to me.

    Sorry, tier 4 to tier 3 to clarify what I meant.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,799 Guardian
    Red_barron wrote: »
    So forget what’s been said and let’s look at the direction this is going, after this season coming bleed champs will be back in and maybe heavy hitters or power control champs are penalized, so we will be back to the same issue but even worse as we’ve spent remorse’s on female champs, to keep moving the goal posts at such short intervals will never give us time to rank up the champs we need so the only way will be use what we have and if your unlucky to have a nerfed champ that series then you will have to use items and pay to play.

    The idea is not to move the goal posts. The idea is to eliminate the goal posts. The notion that there is a goal line is the canonical symptom of the problem.
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    WerewrymWerewrym Posts: 2,830 ★★★★★
    When we said the intention of introducing Rotating Global Buffs was not to find a way to increase difficulty, we truly meant that . The goal is to ensure there is more variety in Alliance Wars, and that we can continually keep the mode fluid, and ever changing.

    Can you please explain to me how, exactly, adding global nodes does not make AW more difficult? Thanks.

    This... ^^^
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    Zuko_ILCZuko_ILC Posts: 1,504 ★★★★★
    People keep calling it a nerf, but that's not at all what it is. It's a rotating Node. Nothing is changing about the Champs themselves. As for buffs, they've done a few and no doubt there's room for more. However, I think the list that people consider useless/less effective is much higher than can reasonably be reworked. There's a tendency to discard anything not God Tier. Buffs have to be calculated and done carefully, and within balance of other progress. It's not a matter of just sweeping all the old Champs.

    When the game only allows you to max out 3-5 total champs after playing for 3+ years then the players HAVE to discard non god tier champs. It's a self inflicted problem, that they have total control over.

    Kabam, and many of their blind supporters on this forum, don't seem to understand that in a game like this any change, even a small one, has a huge impact on everyone. Of course people who are in tiers that won't change can speculate on how those changes will impact players, but they won't actually know.
    Yes, the impact is you can't rely in Bleed for a Season. Given your example, if all 3-5 rely on Bleed, that's more of a tactical issue than Resources. Personally, I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket, but that's how I Rank.
    In any case, there are many other options besides Bleed. No doubt 6*s have been acquired as well. I doubt they're all Bleed. Nor do you need to use a Max Champ. Point is, there are choices.
    The whole reaction is as if this is some type of permanent change. It's the first rotation. It's going to swap out. That's what I'm saying. The response is as if they've irreparably damaged Champs. It's a Node. One that won't stay indefinitely, and doesn't change the Champs at all. Still just as useful.
    For the record, there are quite a few other Debuffs. I don't care what Tier I'm in. I wouldn't rely on one alone. There's Incinerate, Shock, Armor Break, Degen, etc. That brings me back to my original point. People will survive. They'll just have to do something different. That's the real argument in my opinion. The same tactic can't be used indefinitely if the game mode wants to be challenging.

    The response is mainly due to people having limited ranked up champs. If they ranked bleeders because those were only the good champs they've pulled they are now not that useful in the upcoming season. Unlike you some people spend a lot of money on this game. When you do and they make a change that hampers what you paid for its just bad for customers. They aren't getting what they paid for. Of course people will survive but if you spent $1000 to get blade persay and his abilities were reduced after outrage is an acceptable reaction. Free2play players can't argue about anything because they don't financially support the game. Without spenders theres no game.
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    KpatrixKpatrix Posts: 1,055 ★★★
    I would like to see more enhancements available for attack, as well as a choice of gobal nodes we could place on random paths for defense. Give us strategy on both sides of war.

    Also, putting the global node in a place where it can be dropped by taking out a buffed up node or left in place with a penalty for dropping the node that is 80-160 points more than leaving it, maybe even 240 points+ the node points for dropping it.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,799 Guardian
    When we said the intention of introducing Rotating Global Buffs was not to find a way to increase difficulty, we truly meant that . The goal is to ensure there is more variety in Alliance Wars, and that we can continually keep the mode fluid, and ever changing.

    Can you please explain to me how, exactly, adding global nodes does not make AW more difficult? Thanks.

    Since they are both buffing defenders and buffing attackers, it is at least *theoretically* possible that the net result is roughly the same difficulty but with different champs at different strengths.

    I'm skeptical that's how it will actually turn out, partially because the context of the change makes this unlikely, but also because every single time Kabam has said a non-trivial game change would be difficulty-neutral they've been spectacularly wrong. My money would be on "somewhat more difficult on some nodes, but probably not dramatically more difficult on most nodes."
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    sbb75sbb75 Posts: 208
    @Kabam Miike Can you clarify an how a global node (Bleed Immune) is not intended increase difficulty?
    Are other Nodes being lowered? Seems to me that one of the major ways to do damage is being turned off and to balance the difficulty part out is ... did I miss it?

    The only thing I see with the difficulty going down is taking off suicides before placing defenders then redoing mastery again....
    No need for people to start listing how Cable and kingpen will be easier to fight...
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    sbb75sbb75 Posts: 208
    The buff to Female attackers... SW and BE 4* only. Medusa, Domino, GP you took awake their Bleed... even for Elektra and Gamora. X23
    Angela, CM, and KK she Hulk got a buff...

    I honestly believe Female Attackers as a whole will be less effective in AW with their new buff
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,298 ★★★★★
    Quake, Hela, Emma,...just off the top of my head.
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    Midknight007Midknight007 Posts: 765 ★★★
    Kpatrix wrote: »
    I totally agree, just wanted to show someone what it's like in higher tiers that will see the changes. I don't bring any bleed champs right now anyway, 1 t2a away from r4 corvus, x23, or gp. But a lot of my alliance mates have bleed champs as counters for their paths and they will be disadvantaged now affecting the rest of us.

    It's just frustrating when a guy jumps in a fight he doesn't have a dog in. It's like a shrink telling you a bulging disc. Is because you're mom have you too much love as a kid.

    This is my Corvus:
    vdz8onuvx8e6.jpeg

    This is how far away I am from R5:
    e3aetoj0ybmq.jpeg

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