We have adjusted our game playing as a group we focus on feature 4 and 5 start champs. It’s nice to see different champs in AW defense. The MD is no longer and issue. Thank you. I hardly come across it now.
The new system is not the best but it’s playable.
It’s people like this, that haven’t figured out how to play around MD that are the problem
We have adjusted our game playing as a group we focus on feature 4 and 5 start champs. It’s nice to see different champs in AW defense. The MD is no longer and issue. Thank you. I hardly come across it now.
The new system is not the best but it’s playable.
I think most would agree MD itself isn't the problem... the interaction between Dexterity and MD is the problem since Dexterity would count as new buff every single time you evaded.
If you evade and trigger dexterity a few times without ever hitting an opponent. It come across magik you would push them past a bar of power and start dying for evading, or end up with a Juggs/UC that spends nearly an entire fight unstoppable.
We have adjusted our game playing as a group we focus on feature 4 and 5 start champs. It’s nice to see different champs in AW defense. The MD is no longer and issue. Thank you. I hardly come across it now.
The new system is not the best but it’s playable.
I think most would agree MD itself isn't the problem... the interaction between Dexterity and MD is the problem since Dexterity would count as new buff every single time you evaded.
If you evade and trigger dexterity a few times without ever hitting an opponent. It come across magik you would push them past a bar of power and start dying for evading, or end up with a Juggs/UC that spends nearly an entire fight unstoppable.
Sorry for being the noob here but what does MD mean?
We have adjusted our game playing as a group we focus on feature 4 and 5 start champs. It’s nice to see different champs in AW defense. The MD is no longer and issue. Thank you. I hardly come across it now.
The new system is not the best but it’s playable.
I think most would agree MD itself isn't the problem... the interaction between Dexterity and MD is the problem since Dexterity would count as new buff every single time you evaded.
If you evade and trigger dexterity a few times without ever hitting an opponent. It come across magik you would push them past a bar of power and start dying for evading, or end up with a Juggs/UC that spends nearly an entire fight unstoppable.
It wasn't the MD/Dexterity interaction that caused issues alone. There were many issues.
Well I actually come on here to add another complaint. Looks like there's plenty to go around. Kabam needs to communicate better and implement a fix soon. We just lost another war due to the new system, diversity was fine, defender rating was the determining factor. Heck who knows we might have lost anyway but it was pretty much a tie except for a small difference in DR. So war was lost before it began, there was basically nothing we could do to win. I can't imagine another month of this ****. Fix your darn game.
We have adjusted our game playing as a group we focus on feature 4 and 5 start champs. It’s nice to see different champs in AW defense. The MD is no longer and issue. Thank you. I hardly come across it now.
The new system is not the best but it’s playable.
But the problem with taking slow action is that Kabam will wind up losing all the players who liked competitive AW in favor of those who just want another easy chore like AQ.
Like someone said earlier, they could ruin war in one big change, but suddenly fixing it takes months
Unfortunately, this is typical for how MMO development works. When it works it works, when it doesn't work it just doesn't work.
A project like this generally starts with a problem statement. Alliance War needs work because blank. Greatly simplifying things, blank turns into a list of problems, the list of problems turns into a set of metrics that can quantify the problem, a redesign is created that is intended to address those problems, the design is implemented and pushed out. Then the game is run with the new design and data collected on those very same metrics to see if they are improving. If they get to where the devs want them to go, they are done (as done as anything is ever done in an MMO). If not, the tweak parts of the design and go again: test, measure, repeat.
Typically, the major design and implementation work happens in one long phase under development conditions completely different from what's going on when the devs are just tweaking things, so they don't just redesign things. It is always design, implement, datamine, review, tweak, datamine, review, tweak. This loop doesn't go back to design often, and datamine generally takes a significant amount of time: at least a week, sometimes a month or more.
The fact that Kabam has gone relatively quiet tells me there's a good chance they are in a tweak, datamine, review, tweak loop. There's nothing to talk about while data is being collected. And since the tweak loop doesn't generally make major design changes (there are complex operational reasons this is generally true) and since I know only design changes are going to address the problems I perceive in the current version of war, I'm unwilling to simply wait and see.
Keep in mind: I defended the devs when it came to the equally controversial balance changes to Dr. Strange. I thought they cut too deep, but I said then and I continue to say that sometimes the devs design/tweak/datamine/tweak methods are the only way they can really get to where they want to go, and Strange was an example. I think it was obvious his healing was cut too drastically, but that's something you can iterate to a better solution. I wish it could be done better and faster, and many people still think he's cut too deep, but no process can guarantee the devs will agree with the players on what needs to be changed. The point is when you're tweaking numbers anyway, iteratively tweaking numbers is a legitimate way to try to find the right ones.
But here, tweaking numbers is not the right way to solve the problems AW has. So datamine-driven iterative tweaking isn't going to get there no matter how many iterations and no matter what metrics are being monitored.
Maybe they've gone back to the drawing board and that's why they are quiet. I suppose it is possible. But if they were doing that, there's no reason to keep that a secret. The most logical reason for being quiet is they still believe that they can datamine their way to a solution and they are just waiting for the good news to come from the game data.
You think it is frustrating not knowing what's going on. It ain't less frustrating when you have a pretty good guess.
Let's face the truth. This is all about MONEY! Until they bring back Defender Kills, any Alliance can bring max diversity and BUY THE WIN.
I don't think this is necessarily generating revenue. The higher diversity defense placements are also easier to kill. Combined with the easier nodes, I'm mostly just walking through my paths. I'm one of the stronger attackers in my alliance so that's not a universal thing, but my experience is that in making the attack phase easier, it is likely that less players are spending less units on less potions in Alliance War. Yes, you can buy victories. But I don't think as many alliances have to buy completions now.
Win or lose, I'm spending measurably less on war now. I don't think I'm a wide outlier.
Defkills need too come back. So skill can counter rating and diversity to some extent. The nodes are still easy, diversity just makes it worse. Every organized alliance has full diversity and can 100% the maps easily. So it always comes down to rating. There is no way you can beat an alliance with a higher defrating. Thats very frustrating, and not the way alliance wars should be.
Here’s another example of why defender kills are needed the way the scoring is discourages skill and strategy and where the winner is the ones that spend cold hard cash to get suicide masteries and boosted
Ok, for several wars we a 10m alliance have played since the update it keeps coming down to spending to win. My alliance which was founded March 2015 will not spend a 100 dollars every War which has created us to go from tier 2 war when it was based on skill to tier 6 and up which is based on spending. I have been dedicated to this game more than any other and have not missed a log in since march 2015 when I formed this Alliance. Being wars is a huge part of growth for its the only way to fulfill loyalty donations when giving 12.5k per week or should not be a money grab. Leave that to the extra content not the main content if u actually care about the community as a whole rich/poor your discriminating the poor section to lower rewards while granting the spenders a window to the #1 spot. Im reaching my limit after 3 years. If I and my alliance can't play the basics in a game without paying to do so I believe I can do that in another game for free. I've spent thousands to learn this lesson in the past 3 years but am not unable to spend so it's looking very clear what War has become. I have built my roster on my own with my own skill and now if I want to remain playing wars for rewards worthy of my size I now have to spend to do so. I. Know a company is built on profits but i am very disappointed in how wars was altered on everybody to make the new owners richer. Very disappointing that Google has this listed as Editors Choice when every said attempt to make the game more enjoyable has segregated the players from rich and poor.
Let's face the truth. This is all about MONEY! Until they bring back Defender Kills, any Alliance can bring max diversity and BUY THE WIN.
I don't think this is necessarily generating revenue. The higher diversity defense placements are also easier to kill. Combined with the easier nodes, I'm mostly just walking through my paths. I'm one of the stronger attackers in my alliance so that's not a universal thing, but my experience is that in making the attack phase easier, it is likely that less players are spending less units on less potions in Alliance War. Yes, you can buy victories. But I don't think as many alliances have to buy completions now.
Win or lose, I'm spending measurably less on war now. I don't think I'm a wide outlier.
I think you make a great point, but what you are missing is that this has opened the door for weaker alliance to beat stronger alliances (7M vs 10M). That is why we continue to see alliances losing when they dominate the defender kills colum (120 vs 100). These alliance are not walking through like you. They are buying their way through and winning on diversity rather than skill.
Im with much anger, when I see Kabam's disregard for our problem, AQ is coming to an end and they have not fixed the problem and my alliance will be hampered due to a problem that is not our fault.
Let's face the truth. This is all about MONEY! Until they bring back Defender Kills, any Alliance can bring max diversity and BUY THE WIN.
I don't think this is necessarily generating revenue. The higher diversity defense placements are also easier to kill. Combined with the easier nodes, I'm mostly just walking through my paths. I'm one of the stronger attackers in my alliance so that's not a universal thing, but my experience is that in making the attack phase easier, it is likely that less players are spending less units on less potions in Alliance War. Yes, you can buy victories. But I don't think as many alliances have to buy completions now.
Win or lose, I'm spending measurably less on war now. I don't think I'm a wide outlier.
I think you make a great point, but what you are missing is that this has opened the door for weaker alliance to beat stronger alliances (7M vs 10M). That is why we continue to see alliances losing when they dominate the defender kills colum (120 vs 100). These alliance are not walking through like you. They are buying their way through and winning on diversity rather than skill.
I'm not specifically missing that point: it has been discussed in the thread more than once. But that doesn't change the fact that while it is possible to "buy a win" as you put it, that doesn't mean Kabam did this to make money, or that they are even making any money. If you change the game in a way that causes some people to spend more, and everyone else to spend less, you still net less. And Kabam had to know that this was a major possibility because they deliberately made the nodes weaker, and specifically said they made them weaker to make it more likely for attackers to be able to progress through the map.
Whatever else you might think about Kabam, if they deliberately make a change designed to make it easier for attackers to progress and actually say so, you can't really think they were trying to make money with that change directly. That's obviously counterproductive.
It does make AW less competitive in terms of having wars decided by the skill of the opponents, and I've acknowledged that as a central problem with 15.0, but that's about Kabam devaluing competition, not being greedy.
Another AW series without kabam making any comments on their progress to fix this broken, boring AW system. We don’t even suffle defenders anymore in AW, its so lame....
What more data collection, feedback and iteration is needed? Do you guys even have a beta out there with new ideas that are testing with players???? Thats how you want to reestablish your trust amougn the community? This is getting ridiculous!
Yet kabam find time to release new content like this new 6* boss quest. Bring back fun and competition to AW before it is too late and you continue to lose players.
Sorry for my english , i m a french player since 3 years ... i wrote here cause on french forum nobody answers ! Your new alliance war strategy is a joke ! That is ont a war but just a mathematic strategy to find our best diversitate team ... what a Pity ! If we are looking for strategy there is a lot of betterave games for that .
Another point , i rank my **** 5* juggernaut to rank 4 a few months ago for AW. He is always doing lot of kills and give a lot of points for my team . Now is ridiculous cause kills doesn't count anymore . So i Want to derank it because he is really bad now !!
You choose to change rules !!
Kabam ( mike or anyone else) will you take your responsabilities ?? Now when we find a war , We know who will ne victorious whitout fighting ... we just look for points to win or loose ...
Thank you for that a lot of good player stop thé game and some big french teams stops due to new AW ... do something or die !!!!!
I'm in an 11 mill alliance. Every war we have had has been decided by defender rating....
Every alliance has maxed out defender diveristy and 100% the maps.
It doesn't feel great eight way in aw (win/lose)
The wars we win feel like is wasn't fair. The wars we lose feel even worse since rating seals the win/lose.
There hasn't been one war that's been enjoyable at all. No fun!
We play this game for the rush (adrenaline)
The challenge makes it fun. That's gone now. I'm trying to stalk all the bosses in aq now just for some fun. Doing multiple m6 a week just to have a reason to use some items
We need REAL answers!!! What is kabam trying to do to fix this. What do they have in mind? They already how we feel and we know kabam recognized a problem. Now tell us what the future goals are? Specifics!!!!
Hey Miike, its been 6 days now since our last update. Any info to share or at the least a rough idea of when we can expect to see some changes?
We have been dealing with this dreadful system for a while now and have no clue what changes are coming or when. Not only is war just unenjoyable but its getting highly frustrating going this long not knowing if we should or shouldn't rank up since any new changes to come could effect many choices we make while we wait.
Don't mean to pour the pressure on for answers, but we are feeling the struggle on our end.
This is exactly what I talked about with Sctty2hotty33_, we don't need "pressure" to make changes. We already agree that there is work that needs to be done with Alliance Wars, especially from where it started with this iteration. We're getting closer to where we want to be with Alliance Wars, and we'll know more after this series of wars finish.
We are committed to making sure we make this mode the best that it can be! We're not giving up, and we want to work with you guys to make it happen. We understand that it's frustrating that it's taking a while, but this might take a few more iterations. Hopefully not many, but we're going to have to wait and see where we're at soon!
Where there a thread some where Q&A was exchanged?
This is exactly what I talked about with Sctty2hotty33_, we don't need "pressure" to make changes. We already agree that there is work that needs to be done with Alliance Wars, especially from where it started with this iteration. We're getting closer to where we want to be with Alliance Wars, and we'll know more after this series of wars finish.
We are committed to making sure we make this mode the best that it can be! We're not giving up, and we want to work with you guys to make it happen. We understand that it's frustrating that it's taking a while, but this might take a few more iterations. Hopefully not many, but we're going to have to wait and see where we're at soon!
Where there a thread some where Q&A was exchanged?
They read all our feedback, disregard it, and do whatever they want to do.
Just bring back defender kills please. That's all we want. Is that so much to ask?
alliance war is broken and needs to be fixed. thank you. add points for defender kills. seems like an easy fix. only difficulty should be determining the right point value for defender kills. diversity points can stay.
if both teams 100% their map and have 150 diversity, my alliance should not lose by 150 points when the other alliance had 63 defender kills and we had 131. that is ****.
Leave diversity as is, 50 points per.
Bring back defender kills at either the same points or less (probably less to accomplish what they wanted originally).
As an example, at 25 points per defender kill you have the ability to choose between diversity or a defender you think will get you more than 2 kills.
My group has had situation where we had 95 more defender kills than the other group and lost...
I'd like to reiterate what many have expressed, that the AW nodes are without a doubt, near meaningless. We recently had a war against a group a bit stronger than us by roughly 2mil alliance rating. I joined atk with my "3rd string" ATK champs because it was just short of a guarantee we were going to lose knowing what we know about the scoring system post 15.0.
I walked through linked noded champs and the mini with 1 champ KO'd by the miniboss mainly due to my own misstep. Those same opponent champs in the 1st gen. AW? I never would have considered taking them on with links up and definitely wouldnt have been able to beat them with my 3rd string champs without risking a team KO long before the miniboss even if I had played perfectly.
In the previous version it would have been a tough match indeed, but definitely within our reach to pull out a close victory if we played well. I can imagine that it could have been a very exciting fight for all of us instead of the current snoozefest where we haven't even bothered to talk about strategy with lane assignments, how many kills we have compared to theirs(because they no longer matter), which team member we're going to "carry" to the boss etc........
I truly cannot seem to find anything about the new format that resonates any excitment for me and my teammates. I'm nearly in shock to realize and admit that AQ is actually more engaging than AW now. That is in no way a "good thing" in my book.
alliance war is broken and needs to be fixed. thank you. add points for defender kills. seems like an easy fix. only difficulty should be determining the right point value for defender kills. diversity points can stay.
if both teams 100% their map and have 150 diversity, my alliance should not lose by 150 points when the other alliance had 63 defender kills and we had 131. that is ****.
think that's bad? we're about to lose a war, both 100% and both 150 diversity ... we died 53 times ... opponents have died 200+ times.
Bring back defender kills at half the value of attacker kills. Focus stays on attack kills but will reward attackers for dying less. For the love of all things that are good, this war format is complete garbage.
Comments
It’s people like this, that haven’t figured out how to play around MD that are the problem
I think most would agree MD itself isn't the problem... the interaction between Dexterity and MD is the problem since Dexterity would count as new buff every single time you evaded.
If you evade and trigger dexterity a few times without ever hitting an opponent. It come across magik you would push them past a bar of power and start dying for evading, or end up with a Juggs/UC that spends nearly an entire fight unstoppable.
Sorry for being the noob here but what does MD mean?
It wasn't the MD/Dexterity interaction that caused issues alone. There were many issues.
OK thank you...... and what is that may I ask?
Unfortunately, this is typical for how MMO development works. When it works it works, when it doesn't work it just doesn't work.
A project like this generally starts with a problem statement. Alliance War needs work because blank. Greatly simplifying things, blank turns into a list of problems, the list of problems turns into a set of metrics that can quantify the problem, a redesign is created that is intended to address those problems, the design is implemented and pushed out. Then the game is run with the new design and data collected on those very same metrics to see if they are improving. If they get to where the devs want them to go, they are done (as done as anything is ever done in an MMO). If not, the tweak parts of the design and go again: test, measure, repeat.
Typically, the major design and implementation work happens in one long phase under development conditions completely different from what's going on when the devs are just tweaking things, so they don't just redesign things. It is always design, implement, datamine, review, tweak, datamine, review, tweak. This loop doesn't go back to design often, and datamine generally takes a significant amount of time: at least a week, sometimes a month or more.
The fact that Kabam has gone relatively quiet tells me there's a good chance they are in a tweak, datamine, review, tweak loop. There's nothing to talk about while data is being collected. And since the tweak loop doesn't generally make major design changes (there are complex operational reasons this is generally true) and since I know only design changes are going to address the problems I perceive in the current version of war, I'm unwilling to simply wait and see.
Keep in mind: I defended the devs when it came to the equally controversial balance changes to Dr. Strange. I thought they cut too deep, but I said then and I continue to say that sometimes the devs design/tweak/datamine/tweak methods are the only way they can really get to where they want to go, and Strange was an example. I think it was obvious his healing was cut too drastically, but that's something you can iterate to a better solution. I wish it could be done better and faster, and many people still think he's cut too deep, but no process can guarantee the devs will agree with the players on what needs to be changed. The point is when you're tweaking numbers anyway, iteratively tweaking numbers is a legitimate way to try to find the right ones.
But here, tweaking numbers is not the right way to solve the problems AW has. So datamine-driven iterative tweaking isn't going to get there no matter how many iterations and no matter what metrics are being monitored.
Maybe they've gone back to the drawing board and that's why they are quiet. I suppose it is possible. But if they were doing that, there's no reason to keep that a secret. The most logical reason for being quiet is they still believe that they can datamine their way to a solution and they are just waiting for the good news to come from the game data.
You think it is frustrating not knowing what's going on. It ain't less frustrating when you have a pretty good guess.
I don't think this is necessarily generating revenue. The higher diversity defense placements are also easier to kill. Combined with the easier nodes, I'm mostly just walking through my paths. I'm one of the stronger attackers in my alliance so that's not a universal thing, but my experience is that in making the attack phase easier, it is likely that less players are spending less units on less potions in Alliance War. Yes, you can buy victories. But I don't think as many alliances have to buy completions now.
Win or lose, I'm spending measurably less on war now. I don't think I'm a wide outlier.
Here’s another example of why defender kills are needed the way the scoring is discourages skill and strategy and where the winner is the ones that spend cold hard cash to get suicide masteries and boosted
I think you make a great point, but what you are missing is that this has opened the door for weaker alliance to beat stronger alliances (7M vs 10M). That is why we continue to see alliances losing when they dominate the defender kills colum (120 vs 100). These alliance are not walking through like you. They are buying their way through and winning on diversity rather than skill.
I'm not specifically missing that point: it has been discussed in the thread more than once. But that doesn't change the fact that while it is possible to "buy a win" as you put it, that doesn't mean Kabam did this to make money, or that they are even making any money. If you change the game in a way that causes some people to spend more, and everyone else to spend less, you still net less. And Kabam had to know that this was a major possibility because they deliberately made the nodes weaker, and specifically said they made them weaker to make it more likely for attackers to be able to progress through the map.
Whatever else you might think about Kabam, if they deliberately make a change designed to make it easier for attackers to progress and actually say so, you can't really think they were trying to make money with that change directly. That's obviously counterproductive.
It does make AW less competitive in terms of having wars decided by the skill of the opponents, and I've acknowledged that as a central problem with 15.0, but that's about Kabam devaluing competition, not being greedy.
What more data collection, feedback and iteration is needed? Do you guys even have a beta out there with new ideas that are testing with players???? Thats how you want to reestablish your trust amougn the community? This is getting ridiculous!
Yet kabam find time to release new content like this new 6* boss quest. Bring back fun and competition to AW before it is too late and you continue to lose players.
You could view this as a positive in that maybe they are working on serious fix to AW and its just taking longer.
Just kidding. They suck.
Another point , i rank my **** 5* juggernaut to rank 4 a few months ago for AW. He is always doing lot of kills and give a lot of points for my team . Now is ridiculous cause kills doesn't count anymore . So i Want to derank it because he is really bad now !!
You choose to change rules !!
Kabam ( mike or anyone else) will you take your responsabilities ?? Now when we find a war , We know who will ne victorious whitout fighting ... we just look for points to win or loose ...
Thank you for that a lot of good player stop thé game and some big french teams stops due to new AW ... do something or die !!!!!
Every alliance has maxed out defender diveristy and 100% the maps.
It doesn't feel great eight way in aw (win/lose)
The wars we win feel like is wasn't fair. The wars we lose feel even worse since rating seals the win/lose.
There hasn't been one war that's been enjoyable at all. No fun!
We play this game for the rush (adrenaline)
The challenge makes it fun. That's gone now. I'm trying to stalk all the bosses in aq now just for some fun. Doing multiple m6 a week just to have a reason to use some items
We have been dealing with this dreadful system for a while now and have no clue what changes are coming or when. Not only is war just unenjoyable but its getting highly frustrating going this long not knowing if we should or shouldn't rank up since any new changes to come could effect many choices we make while we wait.
Don't mean to pour the pressure on for answers, but we are feeling the struggle on our end.
Where there a thread some where Q&A was exchanged?
They read all our feedback, disregard it, and do whatever they want to do.
Just bring back defender kills please. That's all we want. Is that so much to ask?
if both teams 100% their map and have 150 diversity, my alliance should not lose by 150 points when the other alliance had 63 defender kills and we had 131. that is ****.
Leave diversity as is, 50 points per.
Bring back defender kills at either the same points or less (probably less to accomplish what they wanted originally).
As an example, at 25 points per defender kill you have the ability to choose between diversity or a defender you think will get you more than 2 kills.
My group has had situation where we had 95 more defender kills than the other group and lost...
I walked through linked noded champs and the mini with 1 champ KO'd by the miniboss mainly due to my own misstep. Those same opponent champs in the 1st gen. AW? I never would have considered taking them on with links up and definitely wouldnt have been able to beat them with my 3rd string champs without risking a team KO long before the miniboss even if I had played perfectly.
In the previous version it would have been a tough match indeed, but definitely within our reach to pull out a close victory if we played well. I can imagine that it could have been a very exciting fight for all of us instead of the current snoozefest where we haven't even bothered to talk about strategy with lane assignments, how many kills we have compared to theirs(because they no longer matter), which team member we're going to "carry" to the boss etc........
I truly cannot seem to find anything about the new format that resonates any excitment for me and my teammates. I'm nearly in shock to realize and admit that AQ is actually more engaging than AW now. That is in no way a "good thing" in my book.
think that's bad? we're about to lose a war, both 100% and both 150 diversity ... we died 53 times ... opponents have died 200+ times.
It's disgusting.