General Game Feedback [Merged Threads]

SatsuiNoHadou · May 2020

Bidzy7 said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.

Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?

Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?

Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.

Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design.
- Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters.
- You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.

Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.

Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.

Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).

there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.

Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
This is where you’re so wrong. With suicides and willpower, as long as you’re healing any champ can do proper amounts of active damage on gimme. Have you ever heard of the Corvus cheese? He’s not an uncommon champ in the rosters of those who are attempting act 6 either.

Lol this is so laughable.

I only pulled Corvus like a month ago. Guess i'm now ready for act 6 right

Oh wait

I have 100% 6.1
70% 6.2
100% 6.3
19% 6.4

all without Corvus.

You guys are basically using the same champs to complete content. Then complaining about difficulty. Corvus, Aegon, Ghost, Quake are in a league of their own in terms of dealing with most stuff in game compared to other champs

Also your suggestion is to abuse a bug to complete this path ?

It clearly says in the node description that it Reduces all damage from other sources by 75% yet because of Suicides and Willpower it allows you to do normal damage because you are healing and striking. Well done you found a way to go around a node design without dealing with the node.

I bet you probably did the Mysterio fight with the cosmic buff being bugged too right. Just Corvus steam rolling through it.

How did you deal with VTD ? Probably just used the Nick fury cheese. Wow guys this content is so easy just let VTD kill you and you can totally bypass the fight and not deal with it.

personally don't use suicides and never bothered to unlock them. But i guess i'm not ready for act 6 content right >.>

Oh my what false accusations you like to lobby, guess my multiple act 6.1, 6.3 and 6.4 Legends mean I’m not a knowledgeable player who knows my stuff.
what exactly are you after here?

If you read the node, the interaction you are prompting is a bug. Your hits should not be doing normal damage they should be doing 25% damage all the time. The heal from willpower would be doing 400% damage ( no idea on what that figure is i think its like 150 so would do 600 damage a tick but could be wrong ). 600 damage a tick sounds like a long fight where you would still have to deal with the 200% power gain.

You come into the thread and say i'm wrong and act like i am being stupid by not using Corvus to Cheese this path and then get butt hurt when you called out on it.

You may well be knowledgeable but you are wrong in the strategy for this path is willpower heal and corvus. at this moment in time it works but you are almost sure by the wording of the node that its not working as intended. If the intention was that you can do normal damage while healing would it not of been described as such ?
Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:

Bidzy7 said:
@xNig
you're the one who should read previous posts. You argue act 6 is fine people are just not ready for it as they need roster depth and then when i give you examples of bad fights and you are like yeah i said they over did it.

I swear man you are just trolling. We already had the discussion that you can do those fights just ends up taking along time and isn't fun. I ended up doing it with NF as i didn't have KG.

nah i would say majority of players didn't think Gimme path was fine. feel free to run a poll and prove me wrong on that. The power gain on that path is over the top. Basically forces everyone to use Magic because forget about dexing 30-40 specials in a fight from champions like Bishop, SS etc.

xNig said:

It’s not poor rng. It’s just an underdeveloped roster trying to push content in the guise of “bad rng”.
Again explain to me how a person is supposed to get a particular counter such as KG for mysterio ? Where is this magical place where i can work on getting the champ so i can rank him up to use for this fight.

I'm done talking with you. You just don't get it.

Man.. just feels like I’m talking to a mid tier player who is complaining that hard content is too hard to smash through with his roster and should be toned down to make it easier for him to clear it.

All it takes is some perseverance and/or skill. I don’t have Man Thing for that Acid Wash Mysterio fight as well. Guess what? I got through it with Blade with GR synergy. Others have got through it with SL/G99 and I’m sure, other counters.

If you want to clear the content that badly, then show some spine and stop asking for it to be made easier.
hm at no point have i said it was too hard for me. I have always had the same stance that the content design isn't fun.

You need to spend less time in the game because you are losing the ability to read. Also that your default response to everything is always "They just complaining because its too hard for them."

If i want to i can 100% act 6 right now. I Don't because its not fun just like the guy who posted about the blade fight. i have no interest in doing 400+ hit fights.

I'll have abyss done in a few weeks.

Not bad for a mid tier player right
It not being fun for you doesn’t necessarily mean it ain’t fun or fulfilling for others right?
Did i say it wasn't ?
have i been posting that no one likes Act 6 ?

I actually enjoyed the collector fight and will be the first thing i go back to when i want to go back to act 6.

The fact you are posting in this thread is a good enough indicator that there is a fair amount of people who didn't find act 6 fun. Others would of, BG seemed to enjoy his 6.2 runs, on the flip side he hated 6.3 legends run.

However you and your alliance team mate want to come in here and tell me how i am moaning because its too hard. That i'm just a mid tier player not ready for act 6. I am not ready for act 6 because i don't have x y z champion. Like i said if i really wanted to i could go and just get it done 100%. But tell me why i would do it if i am not enjoying it to then possibly get rewards that give me no immediate satisfaction. There is no motivation for me at this time to 100% act 6.

I’m actually gonna save you the embarrassment, for one I used Magik on gimme during my legends run, not Corvus who I found out later when I was doing some random testing was such a good option for gimme. Oh and another thing, for you to say I’m butt hurt, we’ll if it makes you feel better, you can believe that you got to me, buddy.

Lastly, let me do a final fact check on your last statement about me and Xnig being alliance mates. The nerve you have once again with all these untruths and you just at said at the end that it’s not fun/enjoyable for you. Why are you contradicting yourself? Be more consistent, bruh,

xNig · May 2020

DNA3000 said:

xNig said:
Your LOL example is the PERFECT example.

End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.

Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.

People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
To me this is the crux of the issue with Act 6. When you judge it as end game content, the question is simply one of how challenging it should be relative to the hardest content in the game. It could be harder, it could be easier, but as long as it is theoretically doable it is only a question of how hard you want it to be. Even I judged it that way when it first came out, because of course its end game content because only end game players were in a position to even attempt it when it first came out.

But Act 6 is also permanent story arc content, and the story arc content is also intended to be the core progressional content. Its supposed to be a moderate challenge for the vast majority of players, not just end game content for the highest skill and roster players. This would be okay if it was challenging for end game players with their current end game rosters, and eventually doable by average players with what will be judged as reasonably strong rosters down the road. But unlike Realm of Legends or even Labyrinth of Legends, I don't think Act 6 can be "outleveled" by less skilled players in any reasonable amount of time because Act 6 is, relatively speaking, tuned for champion strengths we simply aren't going to ever see unless Kabam makes future champion power creep completely ridiculous.

The highest skill players in the game can do Act 5 with 4/40s. But average players can go in there with 4/55s and even possibly some 5/65-level champs eventually, provided they can get past the Collector. That's two or three relative ranks higher. There's no equivalent for Act 6. Even the highest skill players are generally going into Act 6 with rank 4s and 5s, and 6* rank 3s aren't that much stronger. Extrapolating the numbers, if we were to hand average players full rosters of 6* rank 5s, those would be about 1.5 ranks stronger than 5/65 champs in terms of how rank ups typically increase strength. Those would be like handing average players a roster of champs slightly stronger than 5* rank 3 to explore Act 5. And that's before factoring in the especially strong fights in Act 6; this is just comparing "minions" in both Acts. To really get the equivalent of three ranks higher in Act 5 would probably require four ranks higher in Act 6, which simply doesn't exist when Kabam's diminished rank up pattern in 6* champs is half as strong: four ranks higher in terms of 5* rank differentials is eight ranks higher in 6* rank differentials above rank 2.

Its easy to say if I can do it they should be forced to do it also, but that's ignoring the reality of the wide range of capability in the playerbase. Failure should always be an option when we're talking about content explicitly intended to test players strength: at some point players will hit a piece of content they cannot do. I never managed the Maze before it disappeared, and that's fine. But the one place that *shouldn't* happen, in my opinion, is in the story arc content. It is ironic to me that players can eventually outlevel and beat Realm of Legends, and they can eventually outlevel and beat Labyrinth of Legends, two pieces of top tier end game content when they were released. But I don't think players will ever likely outlevel Act 6 in its current form, and that's supposed to be content for (almost) everyone.

I even wonder if it is more likely players would sooner one day outlevel and tackle the Abyss than Act 6 in its current state, and that's ridiculous.

That’s true. From the way content was pushed out, it seems as though the intention for Kabam when releasing Abyss was for players to outlevel it first, then go back and tackle A6. I believe they mentioned it as an end of Book 1, and as a start of Book 2.

Act 5, at that point when 5.4 was released, was catered for 5* R4s. (I distinctly remembering only being able to bring in a max rank of 5*R4s for my 5.4 legends run) In the current state, players have been out leveling it by one rank and exploring Act 5 with 5* R5s.

Extrapolating this for A6, given Abyss was released prior to the whole of A6, A6 was most likely tuned for 6*R3s and possibly 6*R4s. In addition, an added objective of “testing the players’ knowledge of the rpg elements of the game” was incorporated in the design, which required players to know what champs to use for certain encounters.

Given that rank up resources are much rarer to bring 6*s to R3s, time is a factor that needs to be considered as well. We are jumping the gun too early to say the Act is too difficult and we’ve not given ourselves time to catch-up to the level in which the average player needs to clear the content. (I believe there are players who are not even Elders Bane trying out A6 then complaining that it’s too difficult for them).

SatsuiNoHadou · May 2020

xNig said:

DNA3000 said:

xNig said:
Your LOL example is the PERFECT example.

End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.

Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.

People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
To me this is the crux of the issue with Act 6. When you judge it as end game content, the question is simply one of how challenging it should be relative to the hardest content in the game. It could be harder, it could be easier, but as long as it is theoretically doable it is only a question of how hard you want it to be. Even I judged it that way when it first came out, because of course its end game content because only end game players were in a position to even attempt it when it first came out.

But Act 6 is also permanent story arc content, and the story arc content is also intended to be the core progressional content. Its supposed to be a moderate challenge for the vast majority of players, not just end game content for the highest skill and roster players. This would be okay if it was challenging for end game players with their current end game rosters, and eventually doable by average players with what will be judged as reasonably strong rosters down the road. But unlike Realm of Legends or even Labyrinth of Legends, I don't think Act 6 can be "outleveled" by less skilled players in any reasonable amount of time because Act 6 is, relatively speaking, tuned for champion strengths we simply aren't going to ever see unless Kabam makes future champion power creep completely ridiculous.

The highest skill players in the game can do Act 5 with 4/40s. But average players can go in there with 4/55s and even possibly some 5/65-level champs eventually, provided they can get past the Collector. That's two or three relative ranks higher. There's no equivalent for Act 6. Even the highest skill players are generally going into Act 6 with rank 4s and 5s, and 6* rank 3s aren't that much stronger. Extrapolating the numbers, if we were to hand average players full rosters of 6* rank 5s, those would be about 1.5 ranks stronger than 5/65 champs in terms of how rank ups typically increase strength. Those would be like handing average players a roster of champs slightly stronger than 5* rank 3 to explore Act 5. And that's before factoring in the especially strong fights in Act 6; this is just comparing "minions" in both Acts. To really get the equivalent of three ranks higher in Act 5 would probably require four ranks higher in Act 6, which simply doesn't exist when Kabam's diminished rank up pattern in 6* champs is half as strong: four ranks higher in terms of 5* rank differentials is eight ranks higher in 6* rank differentials above rank 2.

Its easy to say if I can do it they should be forced to do it also, but that's ignoring the reality of the wide range of capability in the playerbase. Failure should always be an option when we're talking about content explicitly intended to test players strength: at some point players will hit a piece of content they cannot do. I never managed the Maze before it disappeared, and that's fine. But the one place that *shouldn't* happen, in my opinion, is in the story arc content. It is ironic to me that players can eventually outlevel and beat Realm of Legends, and they can eventually outlevel and beat Labyrinth of Legends, two pieces of top tier end game content when they were released. But I don't think players will ever likely outlevel Act 6 in its current form, and that's supposed to be content for (almost) everyone.

I even wonder if it is more likely players would sooner one day outlevel and tackle the Abyss than Act 6 in its current state, and that's ridiculous.
That’s true. From the way content was pushed out, it seems as though the intention for Kabam when releasing Abyss was for players to outlevel it first, then go back and tackle A6. I believe they mentioned it as an end of Book 1, and as a start of Book 2.

Act 5, at that point when 5.4 was released, was catered for 5* R4s. (I distinctly remembering only being able to bring in a max rank of 5*R4s for my 5.4 legends run) In the current state, players have been out leveling it by one rank and exploring Act 5 with 5* R5s.

Extrapolating this for A6, given Abyss was released prior to the whole of A6, A6 was most likely tuned for 6*R3s and possibly 6*R4s. In addition, an added objective of “testing the players’ knowledge of the rpg elements of the game” was incorporated in the design, which required players to know what champs to use for certain encounters.

Given that rank up resources are much rarer to bring 6*s to R3s, time is a factor that needs to be considered as well. We are jumping the gun too early to say the Act is too difficult and we’ve not given ourselves time to catch-up to the level in which the average player needs to clear the content. (I believe there are players who are not even Elders Bane trying out A6 then complaining that it’s too difficult for them).

Which is exactly what I’ve mentioned earlier before about players tending to bite off more than they can chew due to impatience and the fear of missing out.

xNig · May 2020

Hm.... kids are supposed to have fun in school right?

I guess a good takeaway from all these demands is that a good majority of parents will storm into the principal’s office and complain that a test was too hard, resulting in their kid failing the test. They then demand that the test be made easier so that their kid can pass the test with his current knowledge.

Oh and the questions set should not be too specific as well, otherwise it’ll be too demanding on the child.

👍🏻

Bidzy7 · May 2020

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.

Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?

Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?

Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.

Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design.
- Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters.
- You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.

Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.

Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.

Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).

there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.

Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
This is where you’re so wrong. With suicides and willpower, as long as you’re healing any champ can do proper amounts of active damage on gimme. Have you ever heard of the Corvus cheese? He’s not an uncommon champ in the rosters of those who are attempting act 6 either.

Lol this is so laughable.

I only pulled Corvus like a month ago. Guess i'm now ready for act 6 right

Oh wait

I have 100% 6.1
70% 6.2
100% 6.3
19% 6.4

all without Corvus.

You guys are basically using the same champs to complete content. Then complaining about difficulty. Corvus, Aegon, Ghost, Quake are in a league of their own in terms of dealing with most stuff in game compared to other champs

Also your suggestion is to abuse a bug to complete this path ?

It clearly says in the node description that it Reduces all damage from other sources by 75% yet because of Suicides and Willpower it allows you to do normal damage because you are healing and striking. Well done you found a way to go around a node design without dealing with the node.

I bet you probably did the Mysterio fight with the cosmic buff being bugged too right. Just Corvus steam rolling through it.

How did you deal with VTD ? Probably just used the Nick fury cheese. Wow guys this content is so easy just let VTD kill you and you can totally bypass the fight and not deal with it.

personally don't use suicides and never bothered to unlock them. But i guess i'm not ready for act 6 content right >.>

Oh my what false accusations you like to lobby, guess my multiple act 6.1, 6.3 and 6.4 Legends mean I’m not a knowledgeable player who knows my stuff.
what exactly are you after here?

If you read the node, the interaction you are prompting is a bug. Your hits should not be doing normal damage they should be doing 25% damage all the time. The heal from willpower would be doing 400% damage ( no idea on what that figure is i think its like 150 so would do 600 damage a tick but could be wrong ). 600 damage a tick sounds like a long fight where you would still have to deal with the 200% power gain.

You come into the thread and say i'm wrong and act like i am being stupid by not using Corvus to Cheese this path and then get butt hurt when you called out on it.

You may well be knowledgeable but you are wrong in the strategy for this path is willpower heal and corvus. at this moment in time it works but you are almost sure by the wording of the node that its not working as intended. If the intention was that you can do normal damage while healing would it not of been described as such ?
Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:

Bidzy7 said:
@xNig
you're the one who should read previous posts. You argue act 6 is fine people are just not ready for it as they need roster depth and then when i give you examples of bad fights and you are like yeah i said they over did it.

I swear man you are just trolling. We already had the discussion that you can do those fights just ends up taking along time and isn't fun. I ended up doing it with NF as i didn't have KG.

nah i would say majority of players didn't think Gimme path was fine. feel free to run a poll and prove me wrong on that. The power gain on that path is over the top. Basically forces everyone to use Magic because forget about dexing 30-40 specials in a fight from champions like Bishop, SS etc.

xNig said:

It’s not poor rng. It’s just an underdeveloped roster trying to push content in the guise of “bad rng”.
Again explain to me how a person is supposed to get a particular counter such as KG for mysterio ? Where is this magical place where i can work on getting the champ so i can rank him up to use for this fight.

I'm done talking with you. You just don't get it.

Man.. just feels like I’m talking to a mid tier player who is complaining that hard content is too hard to smash through with his roster and should be toned down to make it easier for him to clear it.

All it takes is some perseverance and/or skill. I don’t have Man Thing for that Acid Wash Mysterio fight as well. Guess what? I got through it with Blade with GR synergy. Others have got through it with SL/G99 and I’m sure, other counters.

If you want to clear the content that badly, then show some spine and stop asking for it to be made easier.
hm at no point have i said it was too hard for me. I have always had the same stance that the content design isn't fun.

You need to spend less time in the game because you are losing the ability to read. Also that your default response to everything is always "They just complaining because its too hard for them."

If i want to i can 100% act 6 right now. I Don't because its not fun just like the guy who posted about the blade fight. i have no interest in doing 400+ hit fights.

I'll have abyss done in a few weeks.

Not bad for a mid tier player right
It not being fun for you doesn’t necessarily mean it ain’t fun or fulfilling for others right?
Did i say it wasn't ?
have i been posting that no one likes Act 6 ?

I actually enjoyed the collector fight and will be the first thing i go back to when i want to go back to act 6.

The fact you are posting in this thread is a good enough indicator that there is a fair amount of people who didn't find act 6 fun. Others would of, BG seemed to enjoy his 6.2 runs, on the flip side he hated 6.3 legends run.

However you and your alliance team mate want to come in here and tell me how i am moaning because its too hard. That i'm just a mid tier player not ready for act 6. I am not ready for act 6 because i don't have x y z champion. Like i said if i really wanted to i could go and just get it done 100%. But tell me why i would do it if i am not enjoying it to then possibly get rewards that give me no immediate satisfaction. There is no motivation for me at this time to 100% act 6.

I’m actually gonna save you the embarrassment, for one I used Magik on gimme during my legends run, not Corvus who I found out later when I was doing some random testing was such a good option for gimme. Oh and another thing, for you to say I’m butt hurt, we’ll if it makes you feel better, you can believe that you got to me, buddy.

Lastly, let me do a final fact check on your last statement about me and Xnig being alliance mates. The nerve you have once again with all these untruths and you just at said at the end that it’s not fun/enjoyable for you. Why are you contradicting yourself? Be more consistent, bruh,

cool you still came in here promoting a bug as a solution to content so pat on the back for you.

Akumaccb said:

And you didn’t think to use CG? I thought you had a stacked roster. Seems like you didn’t research enough.

here take another pat on the back because it seems like you could do with it.

Bruh read what i said through every single post. No Contradictions. Act 6 is not enjoyable content for me period.
Well i just assumed you were alliance mates because you you seem to popping up a lot to back him and respond to me on his behalf.

SatsuiNoHadou · May 2020

Bidzy7 said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.

Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?

Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?

Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.

Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design.
- Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters.
- You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.

Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.

Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.

Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).

there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.

Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
This is where you’re so wrong. With suicides and willpower, as long as you’re healing any champ can do proper amounts of active damage on gimme. Have you ever heard of the Corvus cheese? He’s not an uncommon champ in the rosters of those who are attempting act 6 either.

Lol this is so laughable.

I only pulled Corvus like a month ago. Guess i'm now ready for act 6 right

Oh wait

I have 100% 6.1
70% 6.2
100% 6.3
19% 6.4

all without Corvus.

You guys are basically using the same champs to complete content. Then complaining about difficulty. Corvus, Aegon, Ghost, Quake are in a league of their own in terms of dealing with most stuff in game compared to other champs

Also your suggestion is to abuse a bug to complete this path ?

It clearly says in the node description that it Reduces all damage from other sources by 75% yet because of Suicides and Willpower it allows you to do normal damage because you are healing and striking. Well done you found a way to go around a node design without dealing with the node.

I bet you probably did the Mysterio fight with the cosmic buff being bugged too right. Just Corvus steam rolling through it.

How did you deal with VTD ? Probably just used the Nick fury cheese. Wow guys this content is so easy just let VTD kill you and you can totally bypass the fight and not deal with it.

personally don't use suicides and never bothered to unlock them. But i guess i'm not ready for act 6 content right >.>

Oh my what false accusations you like to lobby, guess my multiple act 6.1, 6.3 and 6.4 Legends mean I’m not a knowledgeable player who knows my stuff.
what exactly are you after here?

If you read the node, the interaction you are prompting is a bug. Your hits should not be doing normal damage they should be doing 25% damage all the time. The heal from willpower would be doing 400% damage ( no idea on what that figure is i think its like 150 so would do 600 damage a tick but could be wrong ). 600 damage a tick sounds like a long fight where you would still have to deal with the 200% power gain.

You come into the thread and say i'm wrong and act like i am being stupid by not using Corvus to Cheese this path and then get butt hurt when you called out on it.

You may well be knowledgeable but you are wrong in the strategy for this path is willpower heal and corvus. at this moment in time it works but you are almost sure by the wording of the node that its not working as intended. If the intention was that you can do normal damage while healing would it not of been described as such ?
Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:

Bidzy7 said:
@xNig
you're the one who should read previous posts. You argue act 6 is fine people are just not ready for it as they need roster depth and then when i give you examples of bad fights and you are like yeah i said they over did it.

I swear man you are just trolling. We already had the discussion that you can do those fights just ends up taking along time and isn't fun. I ended up doing it with NF as i didn't have KG.

nah i would say majority of players didn't think Gimme path was fine. feel free to run a poll and prove me wrong on that. The power gain on that path is over the top. Basically forces everyone to use Magic because forget about dexing 30-40 specials in a fight from champions like Bishop, SS etc.

xNig said:

It’s not poor rng. It’s just an underdeveloped roster trying to push content in the guise of “bad rng”.
Again explain to me how a person is supposed to get a particular counter such as KG for mysterio ? Where is this magical place where i can work on getting the champ so i can rank him up to use for this fight.

I'm done talking with you. You just don't get it.

Man.. just feels like I’m talking to a mid tier player who is complaining that hard content is too hard to smash through with his roster and should be toned down to make it easier for him to clear it.

All it takes is some perseverance and/or skill. I don’t have Man Thing for that Acid Wash Mysterio fight as well. Guess what? I got through it with Blade with GR synergy. Others have got through it with SL/G99 and I’m sure, other counters.

If you want to clear the content that badly, then show some spine and stop asking for it to be made easier.
hm at no point have i said it was too hard for me. I have always had the same stance that the content design isn't fun.

You need to spend less time in the game because you are losing the ability to read. Also that your default response to everything is always "They just complaining because its too hard for them."

If i want to i can 100% act 6 right now. I Don't because its not fun just like the guy who posted about the blade fight. i have no interest in doing 400+ hit fights.

I'll have abyss done in a few weeks.

Not bad for a mid tier player right
It not being fun for you doesn’t necessarily mean it ain’t fun or fulfilling for others right?
Did i say it wasn't ?
have i been posting that no one likes Act 6 ?

I actually enjoyed the collector fight and will be the first thing i go back to when i want to go back to act 6.

The fact you are posting in this thread is a good enough indicator that there is a fair amount of people who didn't find act 6 fun. Others would of, BG seemed to enjoy his 6.2 runs, on the flip side he hated 6.3 legends run.

However you and your alliance team mate want to come in here and tell me how i am moaning because its too hard. That i'm just a mid tier player not ready for act 6. I am not ready for act 6 because i don't have x y z champion. Like i said if i really wanted to i could go and just get it done 100%. But tell me why i would do it if i am not enjoying it to then possibly get rewards that give me no immediate satisfaction. There is no motivation for me at this time to 100% act 6.

I’m actually gonna save you the embarrassment, for one I used Magik on gimme during my legends run, not Corvus who I found out later when I was doing some random testing was such a good option for gimme. Oh and another thing, for you to say I’m butt hurt, we’ll if it makes you feel better, you can believe that you got to me, buddy.

Lastly, let me do a final fact check on your last statement about me and Xnig being alliance mates. The nerve you have once again with all these untruths and you just at said at the end that it’s not fun/enjoyable for you. Why are you contradicting yourself? Be more consistent, bruh,

cool you still came in here promoting a bug as a solution to content so pat on the back for you.
Akumaccb said:

And you didn’t think to use CG? I thought you had a stacked roster. Seems like you didn’t research enough.

here take another pat on the back because it seems like you could do with it.

Bruh read what i said through every single post. No Contradictions. Act 6 is not enjoyable content for me period.
Well i just assumed you were alliance mates because you you seem to popping up a lot to back him and respond to me on his behalf.

You certainly have a habit of contradicting yourself quite a bit. A little while it’s fun, then next moment it’s not enjoyable for you.

Oh and have you ever considered that these are my own personal opinions with no external influence whatsoever? Everyone can see that Xnig and I do not have any existing relationship.

BigPoppaCBONE · May 2020

xNig said:

DNA3000 said:

xNig said:
Your LOL example is the PERFECT example.

End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.

Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.

People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
To me this is the crux of the issue with Act 6. When you judge it as end game content, the question is simply one of how challenging it should be relative to the hardest content in the game. It could be harder, it could be easier, but as long as it is theoretically doable it is only a question of how hard you want it to be. Even I judged it that way when it first came out, because of course its end game content because only end game players were in a position to even attempt it when it first came out.

But Act 6 is also permanent story arc content, and the story arc content is also intended to be the core progressional content. Its supposed to be a moderate challenge for the vast majority of players, not just end game content for the highest skill and roster players. This would be okay if it was challenging for end game players with their current end game rosters, and eventually doable by average players with what will be judged as reasonably strong rosters down the road. But unlike Realm of Legends or even Labyrinth of Legends, I don't think Act 6 can be "outleveled" by less skilled players in any reasonable amount of time because Act 6 is, relatively speaking, tuned for champion strengths we simply aren't going to ever see unless Kabam makes future champion power creep completely ridiculous.

The highest skill players in the game can do Act 5 with 4/40s. But average players can go in there with 4/55s and even possibly some 5/65-level champs eventually, provided they can get past the Collector. That's two or three relative ranks higher. There's no equivalent for Act 6. Even the highest skill players are generally going into Act 6 with rank 4s and 5s, and 6* rank 3s aren't that much stronger. Extrapolating the numbers, if we were to hand average players full rosters of 6* rank 5s, those would be about 1.5 ranks stronger than 5/65 champs in terms of how rank ups typically increase strength. Those would be like handing average players a roster of champs slightly stronger than 5* rank 3 to explore Act 5. And that's before factoring in the especially strong fights in Act 6; this is just comparing "minions" in both Acts. To really get the equivalent of three ranks higher in Act 5 would probably require four ranks higher in Act 6, which simply doesn't exist when Kabam's diminished rank up pattern in 6* champs is half as strong: four ranks higher in terms of 5* rank differentials is eight ranks higher in 6* rank differentials above rank 2.

Its easy to say if I can do it they should be forced to do it also, but that's ignoring the reality of the wide range of capability in the playerbase. Failure should always be an option when we're talking about content explicitly intended to test players strength: at some point players will hit a piece of content they cannot do. I never managed the Maze before it disappeared, and that's fine. But the one place that *shouldn't* happen, in my opinion, is in the story arc content. It is ironic to me that players can eventually outlevel and beat Realm of Legends, and they can eventually outlevel and beat Labyrinth of Legends, two pieces of top tier end game content when they were released. But I don't think players will ever likely outlevel Act 6 in its current form, and that's supposed to be content for (almost) everyone.

I even wonder if it is more likely players would sooner one day outlevel and tackle the Abyss than Act 6 in its current state, and that's ridiculous.
That’s true. From the way content was pushed out, it seems as though the intention for Kabam when releasing Abyss was for players to outlevel it first, then go back and tackle A6. I believe they mentioned it as an end of Book 1, and as a start of Book 2.

Act 5, at that point when 5.4 was released, was catered for 5* R4s. (I distinctly remembering only being able to bring in a max rank of 5*R4s for my 5.4 legends run) In the current state, players have been out leveling it by one rank and exploring Act 5 with 5* R5s.

Extrapolating this for A6, given Abyss was released prior to the whole of A6, A6 was most likely tuned for 6*R3s and possibly 6*R4s. In addition, an added objective of “testing the players’ knowledge of the rpg elements of the game” was incorporated in the design, which required players to know what champs to use for certain encounters.

Given that rank up resources are much rarer to bring 6*s to R3s, time is a factor that needs to be considered as well. We are jumping the gun too early to say the Act is too difficult and we’ve not given ourselves time to catch-up to the level in which the average player needs to clear the content. (I believe there are players who are not even Elders Bane trying out A6 then complaining that it’s too difficult for them).

That would be a super weird way to plot out your player capability progress.
"In the prime storyline, you just finished Act 5. Yay! The next part of the story will be too hard unless you do a bunch of "optional" side stuff and then complete another "optional" permanent bonus quest, maybe several times, and then more "optional" stuff we haven't made yet. Then the next part of the prime story will just be annoying. Once you get to it in a year or so."
The next thing to happen would probably be me checking out that Archero game I keep hearing about and finishing up Spider-Man PS4.

GroundedWisdom · May 2020

Pulyaman said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.

Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?

Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?

Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.

Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design.
- Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters.
- You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.

Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.

Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.

Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).

there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.

Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
This is where you’re so wrong. With suicides and willpower, as long as you’re healing any champ can do proper amounts of active damage on gimme. Have you ever heard of the Corvus cheese? He’s not an uncommon champ in the rosters of those who are attempting act 6 either.
Really? Not an uncommon champ? I have over 100 5 star champs and all the counters mentioned here namely Nick fury, Corvus Magik are missing from my roster. I have opened more that 500 5 star crystals and I still seem to be missing these. I don't run suicides either. I am completely ftp. So, yes. Kabam should not put fights with specific counters when mostly everything in the game is rng. I have been playing for over 4 years and I only pulled thor ragnarok as a 4 star once. Testing roster size in a rng game does not make much sense.

The problem is with that many Champs in the game, you have no choice but to restrict what people use. Besides the progress aspect, there's only so far you can go with tacking on some extra Health and Attack. Do you make the Fights half an hour long? Then after that, an hour each? Where do you go with that? How long before Players do the same selection naturally, and whip out Aegon or the next high-combo Champ to get through easier? Which means it's the same old process of relying on RNG. People enjoy Variants because they rely on older Champs that people mostly have, overall. It comes out, they don't have to wait. Some people are going to have Champs they're still waiting on. That's just a part of RNG. It was over 3 years I believe before I had a 4* SW. It happens.

Rockypantherx · May 2020

Anyone else just scrolling for Orange text at this point? Thread is just unreadable

Bidzy7 · May 2020

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.

Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?

Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?

Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.

Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design.
- Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters.
- You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.

Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.

Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.

Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).

there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.

Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
This is where you’re so wrong. With suicides and willpower, as long as you’re healing any champ can do proper amounts of active damage on gimme. Have you ever heard of the Corvus cheese? He’s not an uncommon champ in the rosters of those who are attempting act 6 either.

Lol this is so laughable.

I only pulled Corvus like a month ago. Guess i'm now ready for act 6 right

Oh wait

I have 100% 6.1
70% 6.2
100% 6.3
19% 6.4

all without Corvus.

You guys are basically using the same champs to complete content. Then complaining about difficulty. Corvus, Aegon, Ghost, Quake are in a league of their own in terms of dealing with most stuff in game compared to other champs

Also your suggestion is to abuse a bug to complete this path ?

It clearly says in the node description that it Reduces all damage from other sources by 75% yet because of Suicides and Willpower it allows you to do normal damage because you are healing and striking. Well done you found a way to go around a node design without dealing with the node.

I bet you probably did the Mysterio fight with the cosmic buff being bugged too right. Just Corvus steam rolling through it.

How did you deal with VTD ? Probably just used the Nick fury cheese. Wow guys this content is so easy just let VTD kill you and you can totally bypass the fight and not deal with it.

personally don't use suicides and never bothered to unlock them. But i guess i'm not ready for act 6 content right >.>

Oh my what false accusations you like to lobby, guess my multiple act 6.1, 6.3 and 6.4 Legends mean I’m not a knowledgeable player who knows my stuff.
what exactly are you after here?

If you read the node, the interaction you are prompting is a bug. Your hits should not be doing normal damage they should be doing 25% damage all the time. The heal from willpower would be doing 400% damage ( no idea on what that figure is i think its like 150 so would do 600 damage a tick but could be wrong ). 600 damage a tick sounds like a long fight where you would still have to deal with the 200% power gain.

You come into the thread and say i'm wrong and act like i am being stupid by not using Corvus to Cheese this path and then get butt hurt when you called out on it.

You may well be knowledgeable but you are wrong in the strategy for this path is willpower heal and corvus. at this moment in time it works but you are almost sure by the wording of the node that its not working as intended. If the intention was that you can do normal damage while healing would it not of been described as such ?
Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:

Bidzy7 said:
@xNig
you're the one who should read previous posts. You argue act 6 is fine people are just not ready for it as they need roster depth and then when i give you examples of bad fights and you are like yeah i said they over did it.

I swear man you are just trolling. We already had the discussion that you can do those fights just ends up taking along time and isn't fun. I ended up doing it with NF as i didn't have KG.

nah i would say majority of players didn't think Gimme path was fine. feel free to run a poll and prove me wrong on that. The power gain on that path is over the top. Basically forces everyone to use Magic because forget about dexing 30-40 specials in a fight from champions like Bishop, SS etc.

xNig said:

It’s not poor rng. It’s just an underdeveloped roster trying to push content in the guise of “bad rng”.
Again explain to me how a person is supposed to get a particular counter such as KG for mysterio ? Where is this magical place where i can work on getting the champ so i can rank him up to use for this fight.

I'm done talking with you. You just don't get it.

Man.. just feels like I’m talking to a mid tier player who is complaining that hard content is too hard to smash through with his roster and should be toned down to make it easier for him to clear it.

All it takes is some perseverance and/or skill. I don’t have Man Thing for that Acid Wash Mysterio fight as well. Guess what? I got through it with Blade with GR synergy. Others have got through it with SL/G99 and I’m sure, other counters.

If you want to clear the content that badly, then show some spine and stop asking for it to be made easier.
hm at no point have i said it was too hard for me. I have always had the same stance that the content design isn't fun.

You need to spend less time in the game because you are losing the ability to read. Also that your default response to everything is always "They just complaining because its too hard for them."

If i want to i can 100% act 6 right now. I Don't because its not fun just like the guy who posted about the blade fight. i have no interest in doing 400+ hit fights.

I'll have abyss done in a few weeks.

Not bad for a mid tier player right
It not being fun for you doesn’t necessarily mean it ain’t fun or fulfilling for others right?
Did i say it wasn't ?
have i been posting that no one likes Act 6 ?

I actually enjoyed the collector fight and will be the first thing i go back to when i want to go back to act 6.

The fact you are posting in this thread is a good enough indicator that there is a fair amount of people who didn't find act 6 fun. Others would of, BG seemed to enjoy his 6.2 runs, on the flip side he hated 6.3 legends run.

However you and your alliance team mate want to come in here and tell me how i am moaning because its too hard. That i'm just a mid tier player not ready for act 6. I am not ready for act 6 because i don't have x y z champion. Like i said if i really wanted to i could go and just get it done 100%. But tell me why i would do it if i am not enjoying it to then possibly get rewards that give me no immediate satisfaction. There is no motivation for me at this time to 100% act 6.

I’m actually gonna save you the embarrassment, for one I used Magik on gimme during my legends run, not Corvus who I found out later when I was doing some random testing was such a good option for gimme. Oh and another thing, for you to say I’m butt hurt, we’ll if it makes you feel better, you can believe that you got to me, buddy.

Lastly, let me do a final fact check on your last statement about me and Xnig being alliance mates. The nerve you have once again with all these untruths and you just at said at the end that it’s not fun/enjoyable for you. Why are you contradicting yourself? Be more consistent, bruh,

cool you still came in here promoting a bug as a solution to content so pat on the back for you.
Akumaccb said:

And you didn’t think to use CG? I thought you had a stacked roster. Seems like you didn’t research enough.

here take another pat on the back because it seems like you could do with it.

Bruh read what i said through every single post. No Contradictions. Act 6 is not enjoyable content for me period.
Well i just assumed you were alliance mates because you you seem to popping up a lot to back him and respond to me on his behalf.

You certainly have a habit of contradicting yourself quite a bit. A little while it’s fun, then next moment it’s not enjoyable for you.

Oh and have you ever considered that these are my own personal opinions with no external influence whatsoever? Everyone can see that Xnig and I do not have any existing relationship.

feel free to quote me stating i found act 6 enjoyable.

only thing enjoyable about it was the collector fight.

Bidzy7 · May 2020

xNig said:
Hm.... kids are supposed to have fun in school right?

I guess a good takeaway from all these demands is that a good majority of parents will storm into the principal’s office and complain that a test was too hard, resulting in their kid failing the test. They then demand that the test be made easier so that their kid can pass the test with his current knowledge.

Oh and the questions set should not be too specific as well, otherwise it’ll be too demanding on the child.

👍🏻

apart from half the kids got to use a calculator while the others were denied use of one even though the questions required a calculator.

Bidzy7 · May 2020

Rockypantherx said:
Anyone else just scrolling for Orange text at this point? Thread is just unreadable

haha , was little bored today. So guess i'm partly to blame. will be signing out now anyway and can g

Bodhizen said:
Okay, so let's talk about roster breadth in terms of general game feedback.

I think it's pretty clear that the concept of gates and narrowing down viable Champions to a handful of selections are poor ways to "encourage" roster diversity, because they exclusively punish players. I like the idea of give-and-take, so I am encouraging Kabam to think about exclusively creating (at least for the foreseeable future until there's more of a balance of Node possibilities) Nodes that either exclusively reward players for using more than the narrowed selection of Champions, or for give-and-take Nodes that provide a challenge, but if you bring the right kind of Champion into the fight, you get a boost to your combat effectiveness or your defenses.

For example, create Nodes (point-of-contact and global) that give the Defender -50% physical contact damage from all incoming attacks (including Special Attacks), and have that apply to blocked attacks as well, but then allow attackers to bypass that by making their hits that do physical contact damage count as non-contact hits if they're using attackers that have a specific Synergy active (common ones, like the Rivals Synergy, for example). Do not make it dependent upon having a Synergy that applies to the whole team active; only the Champions that are the Synergy partners.

This encourages a broad swath of Champions to be brought to the fight, particularly older Champions who are more likely to have those broader Synergies. Champions like Red Guardian (for example) would not be great to bring to such fights because he only possesses narrow, unique Synergies. The Rivals Synergy would make ~64 Champions (from all 6 Classes) viable for those fights. I fully admit that this is an off-the-cuff, crude example, but it would work, and still give old and new players reasons to dust off unused Champions (or use the only ones that RNG has blessed them with) to combat these challenges. This is just one simple example of how Kabam can use existing structures to bring new challenges into the game that don't rely on using Quake, Ghost, Corvus, or the newest Champion of the month to get past.

Best wishes!

apologies in all my responding this has kinda of got lost. So feel free to continue from this discussion guys

BigPoppaCBONE · May 2020

GroundedWisdom said:

Pulyaman said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.

Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?

Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?

Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.

Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design.
- Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters.
- You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.

Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.

Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.

Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).

there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.

Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
This is where you’re so wrong. With suicides and willpower, as long as you’re healing any champ can do proper amounts of active damage on gimme. Have you ever heard of the Corvus cheese? He’s not an uncommon champ in the rosters of those who are attempting act 6 either.
Really? Not an uncommon champ? I have over 100 5 star champs and all the counters mentioned here namely Nick fury, Corvus Magik are missing from my roster. I have opened more that 500 5 star crystals and I still seem to be missing these. I don't run suicides either. I am completely ftp. So, yes. Kabam should not put fights with specific counters when mostly everything in the game is rng. I have been playing for over 4 years and I only pulled thor ragnarok as a 4 star once. Testing roster size in a rng game does not make much sense.
The problem is with that many Champs in the game, you have no choice but to restrict what people use. Besides the progress aspect, there's only so far you can go with tacking on some extra Health and Attack. Do you make the Fights half an hour long? Then after that, an hour each? Where do you go with that? How long before Players do the same selection naturally, and whip out Aegon or the next high-combo Champ to get through easier? Which means it's the same old process of relying on RNG. People enjoy Variants because they rely on older Champs that people mostly have, overall. It comes out, they don't have to wait. Some people are going to have Champs they're still waiting on. That's just a part of RNG. It was over 3 years I believe before I had a 4* SW. It happens.

You can still restrict but with options to make it interesting. Make it rewarding to have deep cut knowledge of champs, not punishing to not have just the right champ. There's so many creative ways they can go and they don't bother to ask with an eye to incorporating them in favor of, here's what we're doing, what do you think? With some tweaks after feedback (maybe).

GroundedWisdom · May 2020

BigPoppaCBONE said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Pulyaman said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.

Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?

Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?

Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.

Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design.
- Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters.
- You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.

Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.

Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.

Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).

there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.

Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
This is where you’re so wrong. With suicides and willpower, as long as you’re healing any champ can do proper amounts of active damage on gimme. Have you ever heard of the Corvus cheese? He’s not an uncommon champ in the rosters of those who are attempting act 6 either.
Really? Not an uncommon champ? I have over 100 5 star champs and all the counters mentioned here namely Nick fury, Corvus Magik are missing from my roster. I have opened more that 500 5 star crystals and I still seem to be missing these. I don't run suicides either. I am completely ftp. So, yes. Kabam should not put fights with specific counters when mostly everything in the game is rng. I have been playing for over 4 years and I only pulled thor ragnarok as a 4 star once. Testing roster size in a rng game does not make much sense.
The problem is with that many Champs in the game, you have no choice but to restrict what people use. Besides the progress aspect, there's only so far you can go with tacking on some extra Health and Attack. Do you make the Fights half an hour long? Then after that, an hour each? Where do you go with that? How long before Players do the same selection naturally, and whip out Aegon or the next high-combo Champ to get through easier? Which means it's the same old process of relying on RNG. People enjoy Variants because they rely on older Champs that people mostly have, overall. It comes out, they don't have to wait. Some people are going to have Champs they're still waiting on. That's just a part of RNG. It was over 3 years I believe before I had a 4* SW. It happens.
You can still restrict but with options to make it interesting. Make it rewarding to have deep cut knowledge of champs, not punishing to not have just the right champ. There's so many creative ways they can go and they don't bother to ask with an eye to incorporating them in favor of, here's what we're doing, what do you think? With some tweaks after feedback (maybe).

Restricting with options isn't restricting. That's just a bonus for using the right Champs. Use who you want, but this one is better. More of a gentle suggestion than a restriction.

xNig · May 2020

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:
Hm.... kids are supposed to have fun in school right?

I guess a good takeaway from all these demands is that a good majority of parents will storm into the principal’s office and complain that a test was too hard, resulting in their kid failing the test. They then demand that the test be made easier so that their kid can pass the test with his current knowledge.

Oh and the questions set should not be too specific as well, otherwise it’ll be too demanding on the child.

👍🏻
apart from half the kids got to use a calculator while the others were denied use of one even though the questions required a calculator.

If all the kids were given a chance to save up to buy that calculator, some started saving from day 1 and others from day 100, it’s obvious some will do worse without.

So the kids who started from day 100 will be unable to do the test NOW, until they’ve spent some TIME and saved enough to acquire that calculator.

Not too hard to understand no?

xNig · May 2020

-

BigPoppaCBONE said:

xNig said:

DNA3000 said:

xNig said:
Your LOL example is the PERFECT example.

End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.

Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.

People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
To me this is the crux of the issue with Act 6. When you judge it as end game content, the question is simply one of how challenging it should be relative to the hardest content in the game. It could be harder, it could be easier, but as long as it is theoretically doable it is only a question of how hard you want it to be. Even I judged it that way when it first came out, because of course its end game content because only end game players were in a position to even attempt it when it first came out.

But Act 6 is also permanent story arc content, and the story arc content is also intended to be the core progressional content. Its supposed to be a moderate challenge for the vast majority of players, not just end game content for the highest skill and roster players. This would be okay if it was challenging for end game players with their current end game rosters, and eventually doable by average players with what will be judged as reasonably strong rosters down the road. But unlike Realm of Legends or even Labyrinth of Legends, I don't think Act 6 can be "outleveled" by less skilled players in any reasonable amount of time because Act 6 is, relatively speaking, tuned for champion strengths we simply aren't going to ever see unless Kabam makes future champion power creep completely ridiculous.

The highest skill players in the game can do Act 5 with 4/40s. But average players can go in there with 4/55s and even possibly some 5/65-level champs eventually, provided they can get past the Collector. That's two or three relative ranks higher. There's no equivalent for Act 6. Even the highest skill players are generally going into Act 6 with rank 4s and 5s, and 6* rank 3s aren't that much stronger. Extrapolating the numbers, if we were to hand average players full rosters of 6* rank 5s, those would be about 1.5 ranks stronger than 5/65 champs in terms of how rank ups typically increase strength. Those would be like handing average players a roster of champs slightly stronger than 5* rank 3 to explore Act 5. And that's before factoring in the especially strong fights in Act 6; this is just comparing "minions" in both Acts. To really get the equivalent of three ranks higher in Act 5 would probably require four ranks higher in Act 6, which simply doesn't exist when Kabam's diminished rank up pattern in 6* champs is half as strong: four ranks higher in terms of 5* rank differentials is eight ranks higher in 6* rank differentials above rank 2.

Its easy to say if I can do it they should be forced to do it also, but that's ignoring the reality of the wide range of capability in the playerbase. Failure should always be an option when we're talking about content explicitly intended to test players strength: at some point players will hit a piece of content they cannot do. I never managed the Maze before it disappeared, and that's fine. But the one place that *shouldn't* happen, in my opinion, is in the story arc content. It is ironic to me that players can eventually outlevel and beat Realm of Legends, and they can eventually outlevel and beat Labyrinth of Legends, two pieces of top tier end game content when they were released. But I don't think players will ever likely outlevel Act 6 in its current form, and that's supposed to be content for (almost) everyone.

I even wonder if it is more likely players would sooner one day outlevel and tackle the Abyss than Act 6 in its current state, and that's ridiculous.
That’s true. From the way content was pushed out, it seems as though the intention for Kabam when releasing Abyss was for players to outlevel it first, then go back and tackle A6. I believe they mentioned it as an end of Book 1, and as a start of Book 2.

Act 5, at that point when 5.4 was released, was catered for 5* R4s. (I distinctly remembering only being able to bring in a max rank of 5*R4s for my 5.4 legends run) In the current state, players have been out leveling it by one rank and exploring Act 5 with 5* R5s.

Extrapolating this for A6, given Abyss was released prior to the whole of A6, A6 was most likely tuned for 6*R3s and possibly 6*R4s. In addition, an added objective of “testing the players’ knowledge of the rpg elements of the game” was incorporated in the design, which required players to know what champs to use for certain encounters.

Given that rank up resources are much rarer to bring 6*s to R3s, time is a factor that needs to be considered as well. We are jumping the gun too early to say the Act is too difficult and we’ve not given ourselves time to catch-up to the level in which the average player needs to clear the content. (I believe there are players who are not even Elders Bane trying out A6 then complaining that it’s too difficult for them).
That would be a super weird way to plot out your player capability progress.
"In the prime storyline, you just finished Act 5. Yay! The next part of the story will be too hard unless you do a bunch of "optional" side stuff and then complete another "optional" permanent bonus quest, maybe several times, and then more "optional" stuff we haven't made yet. Then the next part of the prime story will just be annoying. Once you get to it in a year or so."
The next thing to happen would probably be me checking out that Archero game I keep hearing about and finishing up Spider-Man PS4.

“Finished“ as in “completed” or “explored”?

I vaguely remember that 6.1 was pretty easy to explore after exploring A5. 6.2 was harder and more demanding roster wise, but each quest had 10 paths, which meant more time was needed to finish them up, which also meant giving more time for players to build up their rosters.

Pulyaman · May 2020

Akumaccb said:

Pulyaman said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.

Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?

Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?

Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.

Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design.
- Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters.
- You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.

Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.

Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.

Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).

there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.

Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
This is where you’re so wrong. With suicides and willpower, as long as you’re healing any champ can do proper amounts of active damage on gimme. Have you ever heard of the Corvus cheese? He’s not an uncommon champ in the rosters of those who are attempting act 6 either.
Really? Not an uncommon champ? I have over 100 5 star champs and all the counters mentioned here namely Nick fury, Corvus Magik are missing from my roster. I have opened more that 500 5 star crystals and I still seem to be missing these. I don't run suicides either. I am completely ftp. So, yes. Kabam should not put fights with specific counters when mostly everything in the game is rng. I have been playing for over 4 years and I only pulled thor ragnarok as a 4 star once. Testing roster size in a rng game does not make much sense.
Au contraire, it does. We are not playing some FPS or console RPG here, you just said it, this is an RNG game, and that’s exactly how gatcha games separate players by placing barriers to entry based on the weapons or characters in your inventory.

Then it does not matter what skill level you are in or what content you have completed. All that matters is if you have the right champs, which is exactly why most players are asking it to be toned down in terms of difficulty. Your statement completely contradicts the roster breadth nonsense we are hearing time and time again. A person could essentially pull all the highest damage dealers and utility gods in the game within their first 25 5 stars and just breeze through act 6. That is possible too.

TheTalents · May 2020

This thread is supposed to be about game improvements. I could careless if any of you all finished act 6 or have huge rosters. Either one is nothing to brag about.

To get back on topic. Kabam should
1) AQ 30 min timers
2) update daily rewards. We should not still get getting xp boosts, 3 star sig stones and all these things that are no longer relevant to our account for uncollected.
3) give guaranteed progression rewards for all end game content
4) 6 star arena. Followed by a top 800 for 5 star arena or top 5%
5) remove the 5 star sig stone hold that is stopping players from progressing.

BigPoppaCBONE · May 2020

GroundedWisdom said:

BigPoppaCBONE said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Pulyaman said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.

Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?

Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?

Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.

Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design.
- Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters.
- You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.

Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.

Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.

Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).

there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.

Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
This is where you’re so wrong. With suicides and willpower, as long as you’re healing any champ can do proper amounts of active damage on gimme. Have you ever heard of the Corvus cheese? He’s not an uncommon champ in the rosters of those who are attempting act 6 either.
Really? Not an uncommon champ? I have over 100 5 star champs and all the counters mentioned here namely Nick fury, Corvus Magik are missing from my roster. I have opened more that 500 5 star crystals and I still seem to be missing these. I don't run suicides either. I am completely ftp. So, yes. Kabam should not put fights with specific counters when mostly everything in the game is rng. I have been playing for over 4 years and I only pulled thor ragnarok as a 4 star once. Testing roster size in a rng game does not make much sense.
The problem is with that many Champs in the game, you have no choice but to restrict what people use. Besides the progress aspect, there's only so far you can go with tacking on some extra Health and Attack. Do you make the Fights half an hour long? Then after that, an hour each? Where do you go with that? How long before Players do the same selection naturally, and whip out Aegon or the next high-combo Champ to get through easier? Which means it's the same old process of relying on RNG. People enjoy Variants because they rely on older Champs that people mostly have, overall. It comes out, they don't have to wait. Some people are going to have Champs they're still waiting on. That's just a part of RNG. It was over 3 years I believe before I had a 4* SW. It happens.
You can still restrict but with options to make it interesting. Make it rewarding to have deep cut knowledge of champs, not punishing to not have just the right champ. There's so many creative ways they can go and they don't bother to ask with an eye to incorporating them in favor of, here's what we're doing, what do you think? With some tweaks after feedback (maybe).
Restricting with options isn't restricting. That's just a bonus for using the right Champs. Use who you want, but this one is better. More of a gentle suggestion than a restriction.

Why would you want to restrict it to specific champs and what does the high number of champs in the game have to do with that?

Restricting with options I mean say there's a node
where the needed course of action is hitting into the defender's block to do all your damage. Every champ can hit into a block for a bit of damage. There are a few champs that can crit into a block or hit for massive damage into a block.
Restricted it to champs that can do a certain thing and there are many options in that group.

Say there's path where all the defenders are bleeding for 0 damage. I stock the path with champs where bleeding is beneficial for them. Cable, Elsa, KM, Omega Red, Abomination, Sinister, etc.

Now you have to consider who can deal with or remove the bleeds.

Pulyaman · May 2020

TheTalents said:
This thread is supposed to be about game improvements. I could careless if any of you all finished act 6 or have huge rosters. Either one is nothing to brag about.

To get back on topic. Kabam should
1) AQ 30 min timers
2) update daily rewards. We should not still get getting xp boosts, 3 star sig stones and all these things that are no longer relevant to our account for uncollected.
3) give guaranteed progression rewards for all end game content
4) 6 star arena. Followed by a top 800 for 5 star arena or top 5%
5) remove the 5 star sig stone hold that is stopping players from progressing.

NO need to be rude. Thread was originally started to take a look at Book 2 and act 6.

GroundedWisdom · May 2020

Pulyaman said:

Akumaccb said:

Pulyaman said:

Akumaccb said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.

Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?

Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?

Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.

Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design.
- Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters.
- You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.

Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.

Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.

Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).

there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.

Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
This is where you’re so wrong. With suicides and willpower, as long as you’re healing any champ can do proper amounts of active damage on gimme. Have you ever heard of the Corvus cheese? He’s not an uncommon champ in the rosters of those who are attempting act 6 either.
Really? Not an uncommon champ? I have over 100 5 star champs and all the counters mentioned here namely Nick fury, Corvus Magik are missing from my roster. I have opened more that 500 5 star crystals and I still seem to be missing these. I don't run suicides either. I am completely ftp. So, yes. Kabam should not put fights with specific counters when mostly everything in the game is rng. I have been playing for over 4 years and I only pulled thor ragnarok as a 4 star once. Testing roster size in a rng game does not make much sense.
Au contraire, it does. We are not playing some FPS or console RPG here, you just said it, this is an RNG game, and that’s exactly how gatcha games separate players by placing barriers to entry based on the weapons or characters in your inventory.
Then it does not matter what skill level you are in or what content you have completed. All that matters is if you have the right champs, which is exactly why most players are asking it to be toned down in terms of difficulty. Your statement completely contradicts the roster breadth nonsense we are hearing time and time again. A person could essentially pull all the highest damage dealers and utility gods in the game within their first 25 5 stars and just breeze through act 6. That is possible too.

That's exactly what happens with Acts 1-5. Difference is, the requirements are more precise because 5 and 6*s are the requirements. Less Shards mean harder to pull. Now, I hear you that people think it's too restrictive. I still think it's worth pointing out that the process already occurs. People keep saying it as if it's something new. That's what already takes place. Difference is, you can't use anything else, whereas using other Champs is possible but harder with the previous content. Take The Collector for example. (Which was called a money grab back when it came out.) People could Unit through it until they came out with better Champs. Few were getting past it that easily. The Analyzer was a good example back then. Now there is a requirement. That's what people are arguing against. While it may be too narrow, it also isn't meant to allow everyone that tries through.

KnightZero · May 2020

xNig said:

Bidzy7 said:

xNig said:
Hm.... kids are supposed to have fun in school right?

I guess a good takeaway from all these demands is that a good majority of parents will storm into the principal’s office and complain that a test was too hard, resulting in their kid failing the test. They then demand that the test be made easier so that their kid can pass the test with his current knowledge.

Oh and the questions set should not be too specific as well, otherwise it’ll be too demanding on the child.

👍🏻
apart from half the kids got to use a calculator while the others were denied use of one even though the questions required a calculator.
If all the kids were given a chance to save up to buy that calculator, some started saving from day 1 and others from day 100, it’s obvious some will do worse without.

So the kids who started from day 100 will be unable to do the test NOW, until they’ve spent some TIME and saved enough to acquire that calculator.

Not too hard to understand no?

Actually, there is a good chance with RNG in game that (considering the analogy), both boys who start saving from Day 1 and earn the same money to buy the calculator get different ones. The shopkeeper sells a graphic calculator to one and a scientific to the other. Now if both are given the same test with some questions made way easier by the graphic calculator, you get the RNG in game with champs. Boy A suffers even though he's done the same work and spent equal time as Boy B.

Horror_punk · May 2020

Came to see suggestions and kabams replies
End up seeing people fighting

Same old guys with new things to fight upon

DrZola · May 2020

Horror_punk said:
Came to see suggestions and kabams replies
End up seeing people fighting

Same old guys with new things to fight upon

The more things change...

Dr. Zola

DNA3000 · May 2020

xNig said:

DNA3000 said:

xNig said:
Your LOL example is the PERFECT example.

End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.

Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.

People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
To me this is the crux of the issue with Act 6. When you judge it as end game content, the question is simply one of how challenging it should be relative to the hardest content in the game. It could be harder, it could be easier, but as long as it is theoretically doable it is only a question of how hard you want it to be. Even I judged it that way when it first came out, because of course its end game content because only end game players were in a position to even attempt it when it first came out.

But Act 6 is also permanent story arc content, and the story arc content is also intended to be the core progressional content. Its supposed to be a moderate challenge for the vast majority of players, not just end game content for the highest skill and roster players. This would be okay if it was challenging for end game players with their current end game rosters, and eventually doable by average players with what will be judged as reasonably strong rosters down the road. But unlike Realm of Legends or even Labyrinth of Legends, I don't think Act 6 can be "outleveled" by less skilled players in any reasonable amount of time because Act 6 is, relatively speaking, tuned for champion strengths we simply aren't going to ever see unless Kabam makes future champion power creep completely ridiculous.

The highest skill players in the game can do Act 5 with 4/40s. But average players can go in there with 4/55s and even possibly some 5/65-level champs eventually, provided they can get past the Collector. That's two or three relative ranks higher. There's no equivalent for Act 6. Even the highest skill players are generally going into Act 6 with rank 4s and 5s, and 6* rank 3s aren't that much stronger. Extrapolating the numbers, if we were to hand average players full rosters of 6* rank 5s, those would be about 1.5 ranks stronger than 5/65 champs in terms of how rank ups typically increase strength. Those would be like handing average players a roster of champs slightly stronger than 5* rank 3 to explore Act 5. And that's before factoring in the especially strong fights in Act 6; this is just comparing "minions" in both Acts. To really get the equivalent of three ranks higher in Act 5 would probably require four ranks higher in Act 6, which simply doesn't exist when Kabam's diminished rank up pattern in 6* champs is half as strong: four ranks higher in terms of 5* rank differentials is eight ranks higher in 6* rank differentials above rank 2.

Its easy to say if I can do it they should be forced to do it also, but that's ignoring the reality of the wide range of capability in the playerbase. Failure should always be an option when we're talking about content explicitly intended to test players strength: at some point players will hit a piece of content they cannot do. I never managed the Maze before it disappeared, and that's fine. But the one place that *shouldn't* happen, in my opinion, is in the story arc content. It is ironic to me that players can eventually outlevel and beat Realm of Legends, and they can eventually outlevel and beat Labyrinth of Legends, two pieces of top tier end game content when they were released. But I don't think players will ever likely outlevel Act 6 in its current form, and that's supposed to be content for (almost) everyone.

I even wonder if it is more likely players would sooner one day outlevel and tackle the Abyss than Act 6 in its current state, and that's ridiculous.
That’s true. From the way content was pushed out, it seems as though the intention for Kabam when releasing Abyss was for players to outlevel it first, then go back and tackle A6. I believe they mentioned it as an end of Book 1, and as a start of Book 2.

Act 5, at that point when 5.4 was released, was catered for 5* R4s. (I distinctly remembering only being able to bring in a max rank of 5*R4s for my 5.4 legends run) In the current state, players have been out leveling it by one rank and exploring Act 5 with 5* R5s.

Extrapolating this for A6, given Abyss was released prior to the whole of A6, A6 was most likely tuned for 6*R3s and possibly 6*R4s. In addition, an added objective of “testing the players’ knowledge of the rpg elements of the game” was incorporated in the design, which required players to know what champs to use for certain encounters.

Given that rank up resources are much rarer to bring 6*s to R3s, time is a factor that needs to be considered as well. We are jumping the gun too early to say the Act is too difficult and we’ve not given ourselves time to catch-up to the level in which the average player needs to clear the content. (I believe there are players who are not even Elders Bane trying out A6 then complaining that it’s too difficult for them).

I think people gauging the difficulty before they are ready to do so obscures the actual problem with difficulty in this case. It is easy to dismiss complaints about difficulty in general because so often those complaints aren't justified: they are snap judgments made by people who don't have sufficient perspective on that content or the progress curve of the game.

But I don't think that's the case for my own analysis of Act 6. I believe I'm giving Act 6 every possible benefit of the doubt. I'm factoring in *maximal* roster growth possible given what the game allows. I'm not factoring in random champion acquisition bottlenecks. I'm ignoring all of the special case fights in Act 6. I'm looking that the least objectionable case of just getting through the average path on the map, and what the relative effort is between Act 4, Act 5, and Act 6. The *actual* difficulty curve is steeper than that. But that alone says the difficulty curve races upward faster than any conceivable roster growth.

The one thing I don't account for is the possibility of extreme power creep. In other words, champions released in 2021 and 2022 being so much more powerful than predecessors that they are totally incomparable in strength, not just stronger, but many times stronger than even champions released a year earlier. But that would create a separate, and even worse problem. Such champions would then become necessary for all future progress because future content would be balanced around them, and conversely acquiring even one of them at any rank by an early player would moot all the content in front of them instantly.

I think it is also important to note here that if we decide to just wait and see what happens, we're not going to actually "see" whether it is too difficult or not. It is easy to datamine success objectively. It is harder, but not impossible, to datamine failure objectively. But it is very difficult to datamine progress barriers until they have such a negative effect that it is too late to do anything about them for the generation of players that run into them. Because you don't see people succeeding in the content or failing in the content. You just see a diminishing amount of people even attempting it. And you won't easily be able to prove whether the reasons behind that are objectively difficulty or some other subjective problem. But when you finally figure out definitively, you can't just tweak things quickly enough to matter either. Remember that Act 6 is not just a piece of content, it is also the foundation for the difficulty of future content. If Act 6 is too difficult, then Book 2 Act 1 will also be too difficult, and so on. By the time we know for certain that it was too difficult, we'll have a lot more inertia to correct, and a lot more damage to undo than just Act 6.

I want to emphasize that I didn't look at Act 6 difficulty with the goal of lowering the difficulty of Act 6. Act 6 is almost besides the point for me, and I actually originally approached Act 6 from the perspective of trying to *justify* its difficulty, not prove it was wrong. What my analysis tells me is not that Act 6 is "too difficult" which is a subjective thing. It tells me that Act 6 was designed for the highest tier players in the game. And whether Act 6 is too difficult or not, that intent itself is wrong. If we erase Act 6 from our memories and ask how hard should Act 6 be if we were intending it to be played by average players with respectable rosters for players who had completed Act 5, there's no way we would come up with Act 6. Act 6 is monstrously ridiculous, if that was the target audience.

My worry is not that Act 6 is too difficult on its own. My worry is that mindset of designing all future content as if it is end game content is ultimately counter productive to the game's future. Act 6 just happens to be the place where the numbers have the most clarity. If we want to make the future of the game for (mostly) everyone, and not just the top players in the game, then Book 2 cannot continue the trend from Book 1. But if Book 2 doesn't have the extreme difficulty of Act 6, then Act 6 will look like an aberration. If Act 6 is a prerequisite for Book 2, then it doesn't matter what Book 2 looks like because many players won't reach it, unless there's a way for players to get through Act 6 and onto Book 2. And that's the main reason why I think Act 6 needs to be reexamined.

OF course this presumes my analysis of Book 1's difficulty is credible. I can't prove that in the literal sense. I can't even say I'm 100% certain all of my conclusions are correct. I can only say the evidence is strong enough that I think it is worth taking action to avoid the problems rather than try to fix them only if and after they've done enough damage to be impossible to ignore.

Chobbly · May 2020

Here's a suggestion to help fix older champs. I wanted it to be Summoner only, didn't affect any maps, nodes, quests, synergies or other games trappings and so there would be reduced impact and so quicker to code and test.

All 2015 champions that haven't already been buffed could get this solo synergy and maybe certain selected 2016 champions. It's designed to offer older champions a bit more ability to go toe to toe with newer champs.

Legend of the Contest (solo synergy)
When this Champion is the Attacker and the Defender does not have this Synergy, this Champion starts the fight with +10% Attack Rating and +10% Health Rating.

Greekhit · May 2020

Act6 has already made 3 persons from ally rage quit past months. The one of them was descent spender (~300usd) and even with spending he came to a point at 6.2, when he said “enough I’m done with this bs and quit the game”. It’s progressive content and it should be so difficult or “end game”. The average skill/spend player will be able to complete it when he has a deep 6* 3/55 roster or even 4/55s. In terms of this happens for the most of them is at about 1.5-2 years. Will they wait there stale for their roster to grow so they can tackle the content? No. They will quit. I struggle not to quit myself too. I don’t play the game as much as used to. It gradually turned from fun to just plain pay to win fiesta with the disguise of “end game” content. Act6 needs to be tone down and that should be Kabam’s no1 priority if they want to keep their player base. And they need to change their perspective on future story content. It’s not high end stuff and it should never be in the first place. People are quitting massively over act6, that’s the mid players reality.

Doctorwho13 · May 2020

Rockypantherx said:
Anyone else just scrolling for Orange text at this point? Thread is just unreadable

Preach

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