Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.
Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?
Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?
Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.
Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design. - Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters. - You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.
Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.
Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.
Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).
there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.
Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
This is where you’re so wrong. With suicides and willpower, as long as you’re healing any champ can do proper amounts of active damage on gimme. Have you ever heard of the Corvus cheese? He’s not an uncommon champ in the rosters of those who are attempting act 6 either.
Lol this is so laughable.
I only pulled Corvus like a month ago. Guess i'm now ready for act 6 right
Oh wait
I have 100% 6.1 70% 6.2 100% 6.3 19% 6.4
all without Corvus.
You guys are basically using the same champs to complete content. Then complaining about difficulty. Corvus, Aegon, Ghost, Quake are in a league of their own in terms of dealing with most stuff in game compared to other champs
Also your suggestion is to abuse a bug to complete this path ?
It clearly says in the node description that it Reduces all damage from other sources by 75% yet because of Suicides and Willpower it allows you to do normal damage because you are healing and striking. Well done you found a way to go around a node design without dealing with the node.
I bet you probably did the Mysterio fight with the cosmic buff being bugged too right. Just Corvus steam rolling through it.
How did you deal with VTD ? Probably just used the Nick fury cheese. Wow guys this content is so easy just let VTD kill you and you can totally bypass the fight and not deal with it.
personally don't use suicides and never bothered to unlock them. But i guess i'm not ready for act 6 content right >.>
To be fair, mastery investments are not an unreasonable expectation of players by that point in the game.
i didn't say it was, but its also not a mandatory thing to have them unlocked. Just like Coagulate and many other mastery's.
Also i don't need them to get past this content. I Have Magic.
But the advice to use a bug to get around content just leads to issues such as MS and BWCV where people who have no interest in unlocking said masteries doing so and finding out this method no longer works. Is that really what should be promted as the way to deal with this path
How are you planning on using magik without them?
Saying you have no interest in unlocking them is just being stubborn really. Also if you don't think bwcv and Ms should have been fixed then I really am wasting my time here
Magik works by using the limbo heal from the powersting thing put on you. Thats what i used.
Hm.... kids are supposed to have fun in school right?
I guess a good takeaway from all these demands is that a good majority of parents will storm into the principal’s office and complain that a test was too hard, resulting in their kid failing the test. They then demand that the test be made easier so that their kid can pass the test with his current knowledge.
Oh and the questions set should not be too specific as well, otherwise it’ll be too demanding on the child.
👍🏻
That's a ridiculous comparison. If each student is given a random book and is asked to take the same test. Then grade the papers and give out marks randomly instead of the judging the effort put it, your analogy would be perfect.
Sadly, everyone is given the exact same book and the same opportunities to acquire the required results. Some might take more time than others due to skill, knowledge, and readiness to spend, but eventually everyone will get there. It's just the impatient ones who are complaining.
Also, sorry for the reality check. Effort put in =/ Results. Effort is the LEAST worth mentioning component that should be used as a reason because that is the bare minimum anyone is putting in. It takes a combination of effort, knowledge, skill and luck to be successful at anything.
Hm.... kids are supposed to have fun in school right?
I guess a good takeaway from all these demands is that a good majority of parents will storm into the principal’s office and complain that a test was too hard, resulting in their kid failing the test. They then demand that the test be made easier so that their kid can pass the test with his current knowledge.
Oh and the questions set should not be too specific as well, otherwise it’ll be too demanding on the child.
👍🏻
That's a ridiculous comparison. If each student is given a random book and is asked to take the same test. Then grade the papers and give out marks randomly instead of the judging the effort put it, your analogy would be perfect.
Sadly, everyone is given the exact same book and the same opportunities to acquire the required results. Some might take more time than others due to skill, knowledge, and readiness to spend, but eventually everyone will get there. It's just the impatient ones who are complaining.
Also, sorry for the reality check. Effort put in =/ Results. Effort is the LEAST worth mentioning component that should be used as a reason because that is the bare minimum anyone is putting in. It takes a combination of effort, knowledge, skill and luck to be successful at anything.
Sorry, but the probability of that happening to everyone is ridiculous. Sure they make content hard for a reason, all games have a upward curve. But random things can change player experiences
Hm.... kids are supposed to have fun in school right?
I guess a good takeaway from all these demands is that a good majority of parents will storm into the principal’s office and complain that a test was too hard, resulting in their kid failing the test. They then demand that the test be made easier so that their kid can pass the test with his current knowledge.
Oh and the questions set should not be too specific as well, otherwise it’ll be too demanding on the child.
👍🏻
That's a ridiculous comparison. If each student is given a random book and is asked to take the same test. Then grade the papers and give out marks randomly instead of the judging the effort put it, your analogy would be perfect.
Sadly, everyone is given the exact same book and the same opportunities to acquire the required results. Some might take more time than others due to skill, knowledge, and readiness to spend, but eventually everyone will get there. It's just the impatient ones who are complaining.
Also, sorry for the reality check. Effort put in =/ Results. Effort is the LEAST worth mentioning component that should be used as a reason because that is the bare minimum anyone is putting in. It takes a combination of effort, knowledge, skill and luck to be successful at anything.
Sorry, but the probability of that happening to everyone is ridiculous. Sure they make content hard for a reason, all games have a upward curve. But random things can change player experiences
Mic drop.
The probability of that happening to everyone is 100% given enough time has passed. People who spend shorten this “time” with more crystal openings, people who grind shorten it as well through shards acquired from arena, and from war and quests etc other aspects of the game.
People who don’t grind, don’t spend and pray that they get lucky with their once-in-2-week 5*s are those who are in for disappointment.
I’ll use myself as an example again. I grind for milestones and shards every arena (4*B/4*F/5*F) with the occasional 3 day off when my work schedule gets too busy or I go on vacation with my familiar. I do all quests (Beginner/Normal/Heroic included), play war in Tier 2/3 where item expenditure is relatively minimal, DON’T spend on crystals.
As a result, I open 1-2 5*s on a weekly basis, and have almost all the “god/beyond god” tiers in the game.
@xNig being true to character once again, aye. Ever pompous and condescending. Your opinion is your own, the skill you have need not be the standard, maybe consider that?
@xNig being true to character once again, aye. Ever pompous and condescending. Your opinion is your own, the skill you have need not be the standard, maybe consider that?
Just stating very basic facts that are hard for most people to understand.
When I recruit for my alliance, skill is one of the less important parts for consideration. It can be trained and improved upon, unlike attitude and commitment to the team.
So if people are less skilled, they should be working on improving that aspect, no? Rather than complain and try to make things easier for them at their current skill level. If this isn’t an “entitled” mentality, what is?
Hm.... kids are supposed to have fun in school right?
I guess a good takeaway from all these demands is that a good majority of parents will storm into the principal’s office and complain that a test was too hard, resulting in their kid failing the test. They then demand that the test be made easier so that their kid can pass the test with his current knowledge.
Oh and the questions set should not be too specific as well, otherwise it’ll be too demanding on the child.
👍🏻
That's a ridiculous comparison. If each student is given a random book and is asked to take the same test. Then grade the papers and give out marks randomly instead of the judging the effort put it, your analogy would be perfect.
Sadly, everyone is given the exact same book and the same opportunities to acquire the required results. Some might take more time than others due to skill, knowledge, and readiness to spend, but eventually everyone will get there. It's just the impatient ones who are complaining.
Also, sorry for the reality check. Effort put in =/ Results. Effort is the LEAST worth mentioning component that should be used as a reason because that is the bare minimum anyone is putting in. It takes a combination of effort, knowledge, skill and luck to be successful at anything.
Sorry, but the probability of that happening to everyone is ridiculous. If everyone then went and beat all content, why would they then say “ohh that was the most hardest content in the game but I beat it easy”. Sure they make content hard for a reason, all games have a upward curve but it isn’t impossible.
Hm.... kids are supposed to have fun in school right?
I guess a good takeaway from all these demands is that a good majority of parents will storm into the principal’s office and complain that a test was too hard, resulting in their kid failing the test. They then demand that the test be made easier so that their kid can pass the test with his current knowledge.
Oh and the questions set should not be too specific as well, otherwise it’ll be too demanding on the child.
👍🏻
That's a ridiculous comparison. If each student is given a random book and is asked to take the same test. Then grade the papers and give out marks randomly instead of the judging the effort put it, your analogy would be perfect.
Sadly, everyone is given the exact same book and the same opportunities to acquire the required results. Some might take more time than others due to skill, knowledge, and readiness to spend, but eventually everyone will get there. It's just the impatient ones who are complaining.
Also, sorry for the reality check. Effort put in =/ Results. Effort is the LEAST worth mentioning component that should be used as a reason because that is the bare minimum anyone is putting in. It takes a combination of effort, knowledge, skill and luck to be successful at anything.
Sorry, but the probability of that happening to everyone is ridiculous. Sure they make content hard for a reason, all games have a upward curve. But random things can change player experiences
Mic drop.
The probability of that happening to everyone is 100% given enough time has passed. People who spend shorten this “time” with more crystal openings, people who grind shorten it as well through shards acquired from arena, and from war and quests etc other aspects of the game.
People who don’t grind, don’t spend and pray that they get lucky with their once-in-2-week 5*s are those who are in for disappointment.
Once again, effort is the bare minimum.
Mic drop.
I don't grind arena .. not a penny spent I have still finished Act 6.. 100 per cent
People who have explored A6 have my respect, regardless if they spent to pass it, or cleared it through skill. They persevered through building their deep rosters, either using money, effort and or time, and are rewarded with end game rewards earlier than the majority of players.
There are people in this game that I know, who practiced tirelessly against the Champion until they managed to get him down. People who ask for advice, listen to suggestions, put in the rank up materials and resources to acquire champs needed to clear content for the end game reward that they want. These people, deserve my utmost respect.
People who complain that content is too hard, or the game is unfair, or they don’t have enough gold/ISOs, don’t deserve the respect. And it is very reflective in my tone when talking to people like that.
It’s simple, who are you to decide that you DESERVE the end game rewards when you’ve not even put in the bare minimum of effort or money to build up your roster, that others have painstakingly put in?
All that is done is complain and hope that someone caves to give you what you want, make content easier so that YOU can pass through it without putting in the effort needed.
People who have explored A6 have my respect, regardless if they spent to pass it, or cleared it through skill. They persevered through building their deep rosters, either using money, effort and or time, and are rewarded with end game rewards earlier than the majority of players.
There are people in this game that I know, who practiced tirelessly against the Champion until they managed to get him down. People who ask for advice, listen to suggestions, put in the rank up materials and resources to acquire champs needed to clear content for the end game reward that they want. These people, deserve my utmost respect.
People who complain that content is too hard, or the game is unfair, or they don’t have enough gold/ISOs, don’t deserve the respect. And it is very reflective in my tone when talking to people like that.
It’s simple, who are you to decide that you DESERVE the end game rewards when you’ve not even put in the bare minimum of effort or money to build up your roster, that others have painstakingly put in?
All that is done is complain and hope that someone caves to give you what you want, make content easier so that YOU can pass through it without putting in the effort needed.
Honestly, what is so special about completing act 6? I complained the entire time about the champion boss specifically and over difficulty and finished it just as quickly as you did.
People who have explored A6 have my respect, regardless if they spent to pass it, or cleared it through skill. They persevered through building their deep rosters, either using money, effort and or time, and are rewarded with end game rewards earlier than the majority of players.
There are people in this game that I know, who practiced tirelessly against the Champion until they managed to get him down. People who ask for advice, listen to suggestions, put in the rank up materials and resources to acquire champs needed to clear content for the end game reward that they want. These people, deserve my utmost respect.
People who complain that content is too hard, or the game is unfair, or they don’t have enough gold/ISOs, don’t deserve the respect. And it is very reflective in my tone when talking to people like that.
It’s simple, who are you to decide that you DESERVE the end game rewards when you’ve not even put in the bare minimum of effort or money to build up your roster, that others have painstakingly put in?
All that is done is complain and hope that someone caves to give you what you want, make content easier so that YOU can pass through it without putting in the effort needed.
Lol, nobody cares about your respect. I got down the champion chapter in the minimum number of runs needed with an r4 hood all the time, capiw for last 10%. Was a fun chapter, only had issues in the mordo chapter with my weak mutant and cosmic/ and that 6* gate magik (yuck). Nothing to respect. In my eyes, it is boring, and time consuming, and the effort put in does not reflect the rewards gotten. Yes, I like challenges (Which is why i usually do content as early as possible), but act6 doesnt give me the drive. Before you comment on my roster, i do have 20+ r5s and multiple r2s and r3 domino. Havent done any content with ghost/corvus/cmm/symsupreme. Act6 is just long, drawn out, and flat out boring.
This thread gives me such a deja vu feeling. Before variant 1 was released, I was pleading to Kabam to introduce some challenging content in the game.
I will never understand the opposition to content that your current roster cannot overcome. That just gives you a goal to aim for. Currently, after Act 6, it's a sad time in the game. I don't have anything interesting to look forward to.
I think it is really a difference of two distinct group. One plays the game for content like old school games, where you get kick from overcoming a challenge. And the second group, that just wants to collect more and more champions at a higher and higher level for some unexplained reason. Again, it is difficult for me to wrap my head around the rationale of the second group.
The thread, once it went into the difficulty of Act 6, is going in circles where both groups cannot get through to the other. More like a liberal vs conservative debate at a family dinner
I mean the game is centered more around assembling a team and collecting champions. This isn't a game where you have a single character and have to play your way through content. A lot of the draw from the game comes from playing your favorite marvel characters, which is one of the reason why this game is popular and has done well over the years.
You also seem to be missing the point of alot whats been said in here and assume pople are complaining about difficulty. Its not people are opposed to challenging content. However there is difference to that challenge based on certain champions you pull therefore creating an uneven playing field which is determined not by effort or time invested but by RNG. Ofc the more you play and longer you play improves upon that by having more crystals but even then RNG could just not fall in your favor.
Example 6.2.5 Global node that requires a heavy or intercept to Remove charges. Generally this isn't a issue every player can parry and heavy if they can't intercept with any champ. Now the stun immune nodes. This forces players to either intercept or heavy counter adding an extra layer of difficulty based on skill to the fights. That's fine in itself. However you then have champions like Namor(sig 200), Corvus(duped), Ghost that can just ignore the global and fight normally thus making the difficulty of having to intercept or heavy counter irrelevant . Given the choice how would you deal with these fights ? ofc you would much prefer the easier option which is those champs because they bypass the challenge. So is that really challenging content or is it more a case of get the right champs then do the fights ?
This is the issue with a lot of stuff in act 6 where the counters to the mechanics are small and the investment in ranking up lesser champions that can do the fight holds little value to the players. Taking a champion to r4 is quite an investment particularly gold wise. We were told that r5 4*s were excluded to avoid a frustrating experience for players which to me suggests Kabam felt they weren't strong enough which means r3 5* are similar in that regard. So r4 and r5 champions are more or less encouraged to be used. As you progress through the chapters the attack and health values keep going up that it then becomes more encouraging to use r5 5* and r1/2 6*s.
My own personal experience in this regard is in 6.2.5 the cosmic path which has a 100% bleed sparky among other things on the path. But for this fight I had no Corvus or even KG. My only cosmic bleed immune was Groot. In the last 2-3 months i have since pulled both KG and Corvus. But 6.2. came out over a year ago. Am i really expected to invest so heavily in a champion like groot who needs a rework just for this fight ? Ofc i could use the 5th Slot people will argue. However the path has so many difficult matches with so many different mechanics that i wouldn't have an option with other cosmic champs for those fights. Going back to investment in this regards. Corvus would be useful for all paths i could bring him in as he also is good for the global where as groot.. well you know. Had we not had the class gates my options go from groot to sentinel, Omega, Emma, MS, IWIM, Luke Cage all at r4 or higher.
Also fighting the fights as they were designed there is no reward for doing that. So again this favors those with good RNG more so then skill. Now if they added some buff you got for fighting with intercepts or landing a heavy on champion not stunned such as gaining a fury to increase damage people would have a greater incentive to go in and do the challenge because, ok RNG hasn't been kind, but if you play a certain way you can alleviate that somewhat and get past the content with skill.
Hm.... kids are supposed to have fun in school right?
I guess a good takeaway from all these demands is that a good majority of parents will storm into the principal’s office and complain that a test was too hard, resulting in their kid failing the test. They then demand that the test be made easier so that their kid can pass the test with his current knowledge.
Oh and the questions set should not be too specific as well, otherwise it’ll be too demanding on the child.
👍🏻
That's a ridiculous comparison. If each student is given a random book and is asked to take the same test. Then grade the papers and give out marks randomly instead of the judging the effort put it, your analogy would be perfect.
As a schoolteacher, I find this comparison to be pretty damn accurate.
End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.
Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.
People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
To me this is the crux of the issue with Act 6. When you judge it as end game content, the question is simply one of how challenging it should be relative to the hardest content in the game. It could be harder, it could be easier, but as long as it is theoretically doable it is only a question of how hard you want it to be. Even I judged it that way when it first came out, because of course its end game content because only end game players were in a position to even attempt it when it first came out.
But Act 6 is also permanent story arc content, and the story arc content is also intended to be the core progressional content. Its supposed to be a moderate challenge for the vast majority of players, not just end game content for the highest skill and roster players. This would be okay if it was challenging for end game players with their current end game rosters, and eventually doable by average players with what will be judged as reasonably strong rosters down the road. But unlike Realm of Legends or even Labyrinth of Legends, I don't think Act 6 can be "outleveled" by less skilled players in any reasonable amount of time because Act 6 is, relatively speaking, tuned for champion strengths we simply aren't going to ever see unless Kabam makes future champion power creep completely ridiculous.
The highest skill players in the game can do Act 5 with 4/40s. But average players can go in there with 4/55s and even possibly some 5/65-level champs eventually, provided they can get past the Collector. That's two or three relative ranks higher. There's no equivalent for Act 6. Even the highest skill players are generally going into Act 6 with rank 4s and 5s, and 6* rank 3s aren't that much stronger. Extrapolating the numbers, if we were to hand average players full rosters of 6* rank 5s, those would be about 1.5 ranks stronger than 5/65 champs in terms of how rank ups typically increase strength. Those would be like handing average players a roster of champs slightly stronger than 5* rank 3 to explore Act 5. And that's before factoring in the especially strong fights in Act 6; this is just comparing "minions" in both Acts. To really get the equivalent of three ranks higher in Act 5 would probably require four ranks higher in Act 6, which simply doesn't exist when Kabam's diminished rank up pattern in 6* champs is half as strong: four ranks higher in terms of 5* rank differentials is eight ranks higher in 6* rank differentials above rank 2.
Its easy to say if I can do it they should be forced to do it also, but that's ignoring the reality of the wide range of capability in the playerbase. Failure should always be an option when we're talking about content explicitly intended to test players strength: at some point players will hit a piece of content they cannot do. I never managed the Maze before it disappeared, and that's fine. But the one place that *shouldn't* happen, in my opinion, is in the story arc content. It is ironic to me that players can eventually outlevel and beat Realm of Legends, and they can eventually outlevel and beat Labyrinth of Legends, two pieces of top tier end game content when they were released. But I don't think players will ever likely outlevel Act 6 in its current form, and that's supposed to be content for (almost) everyone.
I even wonder if it is more likely players would sooner one day outlevel and tackle the Abyss than Act 6 in its current state, and that's ridiculous.
That’s true. From the way content was pushed out, it seems as though the intention for Kabam when releasing Abyss was for players to outlevel it first, then go back and tackle A6. I believe they mentioned it as an end of Book 1, and as a start of Book 2.
Act 5, at that point when 5.4 was released, was catered for 5* R4s. (I distinctly remembering only being able to bring in a max rank of 5*R4s for my 5.4 legends run) In the current state, players have been out leveling it by one rank and exploring Act 5 with 5* R5s.
Extrapolating this for A6, given Abyss was released prior to the whole of A6, A6 was most likely tuned for 6*R3s and possibly 6*R4s. In addition, an added objective of “testing the players’ knowledge of the rpg elements of the game” was incorporated in the design, which required players to know what champs to use for certain encounters.
Given that rank up resources are much rarer to bring 6*s to R3s, time is a factor that needs to be considered as well. We are jumping the gun too early to say the Act is too difficult and we’ve not given ourselves time to catch-up to the level in which the average player needs to clear the content. (I believe there are players who are not even Elders Bane trying out A6 then complaining that it’s too difficult for them).
I think people gauging the difficulty before they are ready to do so obscures the actual problem with difficulty in this case. It is easy to dismiss complaints about difficulty in general because so often those complaints aren't justified: they are snap judgments made by people who don't have sufficient perspective on that content or the progress curve of the game.
But I don't think that's the case for my own analysis of Act 6. I believe I'm giving Act 6 every possible benefit of the doubt. I'm factoring in *maximal* roster growth possible given what the game allows. I'm not factoring in random champion acquisition bottlenecks. I'm ignoring all of the special case fights in Act 6. I'm looking that the least objectionable case of just getting through the average path on the map, and what the relative effort is between Act 4, Act 5, and Act 6. The *actual* difficulty curve is steeper than that. But that alone says the difficulty curve races upward faster than any conceivable roster growth.
The one thing I don't account for is the possibility of extreme power creep. In other words, champions released in 2021 and 2022 being so much more powerful than predecessors that they are totally incomparable in strength, not just stronger, but many times stronger than even champions released a year earlier. But that would create a separate, and even worse problem. Such champions would then become necessary for all future progress because future content would be balanced around them, and conversely acquiring even one of them at any rank by an early player would moot all the content in front of them instantly.
I think it is also important to note here that if we decide to just wait and see what happens, we're not going to actually "see" whether it is too difficult or not. It is easy to datamine success objectively. It is harder, but not impossible, to datamine failure objectively. But it is very difficult to datamine progress barriers until they have such a negative effect that it is too late to do anything about them for the generation of players that run into them. Because you don't see people succeeding in the content or failing in the content. You just see a diminishing amount of people even attempting it. And you won't easily be able to prove whether the reasons behind that are objectively difficulty or some other subjective problem. But when you finally figure out definitively, you can't just tweak things quickly enough to matter either. Remember that Act 6 is not just a piece of content, it is also the foundation for the difficulty of future content. If Act 6 is too difficult, then Book 2 Act 1 will also be too difficult, and so on. By the time we know for certain that it was too difficult, we'll have a lot more inertia to correct, and a lot more damage to undo than just Act 6.
I want to emphasize that I didn't look at Act 6 difficulty with the goal of lowering the difficulty of Act 6. Act 6 is almost besides the point for me, and I actually originally approached Act 6 from the perspective of trying to *justify* its difficulty, not prove it was wrong. What my analysis tells me is not that Act 6 is "too difficult" which is a subjective thing. It tells me that Act 6 was designed for the highest tier players in the game. And whether Act 6 is too difficult or not, that intent itself is wrong. If we erase Act 6 from our memories and ask how hard should Act 6 be if we were intending it to be played by average players with respectable rosters for players who had completed Act 5, there's no way we would come up with Act 6. Act 6 is monstrously ridiculous, if that was the target audience.
My worry is not that Act 6 is too difficult on its own. My worry is that mindset of designing all future content as if it is end game content is ultimately counter productive to the game's future. Act 6 just happens to be the place where the numbers have the most clarity. If we want to make the future of the game for (mostly) everyone, and not just the top players in the game, then Book 2 cannot continue the trend from Book 1. But if Book 2 doesn't have the extreme difficulty of Act 6, then Act 6 will look like an aberration. If Act 6 is a prerequisite for Book 2, then it doesn't matter what Book 2 looks like because many players won't reach it, unless there's a way for players to get through Act 6 and onto Book 2. And that's the main reason why I think Act 6 needs to be reexamined.
OF course this presumes my analysis of Book 1's difficulty is credible. I can't prove that in the literal sense. I can't even say I'm 100% certain all of my conclusions are correct. I can only say the evidence is strong enough that I think it is worth taking action to avoid the problems rather than try to fix them only if and after they've done enough damage to be impossible to ignore.
I love reading your analysis of all this. I think you brilliantly articulate why there are frustrations within a huge cross section of the player base. Personally I have the roster and a to a certain degree skill set to get through act 6. But given the steep difficulty curve in relation to every other Act that preceded it, I need a huge amount of revives and potions to get through some of the BS nodes. Punisher in 6.3.2 was taking away around 75% of health from blocking his SP1’s. Its only because I have a max sig Aegon that I’m working through 6.3, I wouldn’t even attempt it otherwise. I absolutely don’t mind if I’m gated off from completing AOL due to needing to be the best of the best skill wise. But it feels ultimately counter productive for Kabam to make act 6 so difficult the end result is only a small minority of players actually get through it to play Act 7. Yes you want content to be difficult, but not to the degree that players decide to not even trying to complete it.
But .... Punisher's sp1 .... is... fully.... evadeable.
Essentially all special 1 and 2 attacks are fully evadable. We know this because the computer can evade them when forced to do so when an auto-evade champ does it. The only question is what percentage of human beings can do it. For some special attacks that number is small, and for a few it is vanishingly close to zero.
People who have explored A6 have my respect, regardless if they spent to pass it, or cleared it through skill. They persevered through building their deep rosters, either using money, effort and or time, and are rewarded with end game rewards earlier than the majority of players.
There are people in this game that I know, who practiced tirelessly against the Champion until they managed to get him down. People who ask for advice, listen to suggestions, put in the rank up materials and resources to acquire champs needed to clear content for the end game reward that they want. These people, deserve my utmost respect.
People who complain that content is too hard, or the game is unfair, or they don’t have enough gold/ISOs, don’t deserve the respect. And it is very reflective in my tone when talking to people like that.
It’s simple, who are you to decide that you DESERVE the end game rewards when you’ve not even put in the bare minimum of effort or money to build up your roster, that others have painstakingly put in?
All that is done is complain and hope that someone caves to give you what you want, make content easier so that YOU can pass through it without putting in the effort needed.
You still fail to understand the point of RNG. Don't understand how. You're FTP. There definitely are other FTP with the same amount of skill in the game and commitment doing arena and grinding. Yet if they don't get the God-Like champs that you have, they struggle more to finish content or have to spend more time grinding for units and potions than you. Second, who are YOU to decide that others haven't put in effort? All I see is you being a condescending **** to people and calling everyone mid-tier. You don't know how people play and what effort they put in.
This thread gives me such a deja vu feeling. Before variant 1 was released, I was pleading to Kabam to introduce some challenging content in the game.
I will never understand the opposition to content that your current roster cannot overcome. That just gives you a goal to aim for. Currently, after Act 6, it's a sad time in the game. I don't have anything interesting to look forward to.
I think it is really a difference of two distinct group. One plays the game for content like old school games, where you get kick from overcoming a challenge. And the second group, that just wants to collect more and more champions at a higher and higher level for some unexplained reason. Again, it is difficult for me to wrap my head around the rationale of the second group.
The thread, once it went into the difficulty of Act 6, is going in circles where both groups cannot get through to the other. More like a liberal vs conservative debate at a family dinner
I mean the game is centered more around assembling a team and collecting champions. This isn't a game where you have a single character and have to play your way through content. A lot of the draw from the game comes from playing your favorite marvel characters, which is one of the reason why this game is popular and has done well over the years.
You also seem to be missing the point of alot whats been said in here and assume pople are complaining about difficulty. Its not people are opposed to challenging content. However there is difference to that challenge based on certain champions you pull therefore creating an uneven playing field which is determined not by effort or time invested but by RNG. Ofc the more you play and longer you play improves upon that by having more crystals but even then RNG could just not fall in your favor.
Example 6.2.5 Global node that requires a heavy or intercept to Remove charges. Generally this isn't a issue every player can parry and heavy if they can't intercept with any champ. Now the stun immune nodes. This forces players to either intercept or heavy counter adding an extra layer of difficulty based on skill to the fights. That's fine in itself. However you then have champions like Namor(sig 200), Corvus(duped), Ghost that can just ignore the global and fight normally thus making the difficulty of having to intercept or heavy counter irrelevant . Given the choice how would you deal with these fights ? ofc you would much prefer the easier option which is those champs because they bypass the challenge. So is that really challenging content or is it more a case of get the right champs then do the fights ?
This is the issue with a lot of stuff in act 6 where the counters to the mechanics are small and the investment in ranking up lesser champions that can do the fight holds little value to the players. Taking a champion to r4 is quite an investment particularly gold wise. We were told that r5 4*s were excluded to avoid a frustrating experience for players which to me suggests Kabam felt they weren't strong enough which means r3 5* are similar in that regard. So r4 and r5 champions are more or less encouraged to be used. As you progress through the chapters the attack and health values keep going up that it then becomes more encouraging to use r5 5* and r1/2 6*s.
My own personal experience in this regard is in 6.2.5 the cosmic path which has a 100% bleed sparky among other things on the path. But for this fight I had no Corvus or even KG. My only cosmic bleed immune was Groot. In the last 2-3 months i have since pulled both KG and Corvus. But 6.2. came out over a year ago. Am i really expected to invest so heavily in a champion like groot who needs a rework just for this fight ? Ofc i could use the 5th Slot people will argue. However the path has so many difficult matches with so many different mechanics that i wouldn't have an option with other cosmic champs for those fights. Going back to investment in this regards. Corvus would be useful for all paths i could bring him in as he also is good for the global where as groot.. well you know. Had we not had the class gates my options go from groot to sentinel, Omega, Emma, MS, IWIM, Luke Cage all at r4 or higher.
Also fighting the fights as they were designed there is no reward for doing that. So again this favors those with good RNG more so then skill. Now if they added some buff you got for fighting with intercepts or landing a heavy on champion not stunned such as gaining a fury to increase damage people would have a greater incentive to go in and do the challenge because, ok RNG hasn't been kind, but if you play a certain way you can alleviate that somewhat and get past the content with skill.
In regards to Sparky bleed node, venom gets through it fine. Run willpower and he crushes in very quick. Thats who i ended up using. No corvus here.
Hm.... kids are supposed to have fun in school right?
I guess a good takeaway from all these demands is that a good majority of parents will storm into the principal’s office and complain that a test was too hard, resulting in their kid failing the test. They then demand that the test be made easier so that their kid can pass the test with his current knowledge.
Oh and the questions set should not be too specific as well, otherwise it’ll be too demanding on the child.
👍🏻
That's a ridiculous comparison. If each student is given a random book and is asked to take the same test. Then grade the papers and give out marks randomly instead of the judging the effort put it, your analogy would be perfect.
Sadly, everyone is given the exact same book and the same opportunities to acquire the required results. Some might take more time than others due to skill, knowledge, and readiness to spend, but eventually everyone will get there. It's just the impatient ones who are complaining.
Also, sorry for the reality check. Effort put in =/ Results. Effort is the LEAST worth mentioning component that should be used as a reason because that is the bare minimum anyone is putting in. It takes a combination of effort, knowledge, skill and luck to be successful at anything.
Sorry, but the probability of that happening to everyone is ridiculous. If everyone then went and beat all content, why would they then say “ohh that was the most hardest content in the game but I beat it easy”. Sure they make content hard for a reason, all games have a upward curve but it isn’t impossible.
Hm.... kids are supposed to have fun in school right?
I guess a good takeaway from all these demands is that a good majority of parents will storm into the principal’s office and complain that a test was too hard, resulting in their kid failing the test. They then demand that the test be made easier so that their kid can pass the test with his current knowledge.
Oh and the questions set should not be too specific as well, otherwise it’ll be too demanding on the child.
👍🏻
That's a ridiculous comparison. If each student is given a random book and is asked to take the same test. Then grade the papers and give out marks randomly instead of the judging the effort put it, your analogy would be perfect.
Sadly, everyone is given the exact same book and the same opportunities to acquire the required results. Some might take more time than others due to skill, knowledge, and readiness to spend, but eventually everyone will get there. It's just the impatient ones who are complaining.
Also, sorry for the reality check. Effort put in =/ Results. Effort is the LEAST worth mentioning component that should be used as a reason because that is the bare minimum anyone is putting in. It takes a combination of effort, knowledge, skill and luck to be successful at anything.
Sorry, but the probability of that happening to everyone is ridiculous. Sure they make content hard for a reason, all games have a upward curve. But random things can change player experiences
Mic drop.
The probability of that happening to everyone is 100% given enough time has passed. People who spend shorten this “time” with more crystal openings, people who grind shorten it as well through shards acquired from arena, and from war and quests etc other aspects of the game.
People who don’t grind, don’t spend and pray that they get lucky with their once-in-2-week 5*s are those who are in for disappointment.
Once again, effort is the bare minimum.
Mic drop.
I don't grind arena .. not a penny spent I have still finished Act 6.. 100 per cent
Champ acquisition has definitely played a part hasn't it? You've taken up weaker counters as I've read before in the thread, but definitely would have had some of the top champs to help clear content? Skill is definitely the main thing since you don't grind, but can't say that having the right champs in the roster hasn't helped.
@pseudosane oh i know, i just used that as an example to illustrate the disparity in the value of counters for some of these specific fights. As the fight is designed to use a bleed immune otherwise your lose 100% of your health so to avoid the bleed my option was groot which isn't a fun time lol. I have been using Hype with willpower and then triggering Cosmic healing to get past the fight.
But appreciate you trying to help with the suggestion
Another Suggestion: Release the data every month of how many people completed Act5 100% , Act6 100% ,LOL 100% , AOL 100% and Variants(1,2,3& 4 separately)100%
This will throw a light on the State of Game to some extent as these are permanent quests and it isn’t that tough to datamine such stuff for a little bit of transparency in game
Since it's June now, will we see a roadmap this week?
@Kabam Miike can the community please get an update as your silence is deafening, even if it is an acknowledgement and some communication to the player base
Since it's June now, will we see a roadmap this week?
@Kabam Miike can the community please get an update as your silence is deafening, even if it is an acknowledgement and some communication to the player base
Hey Kabam— 3.5 weeks since this thread was created and I’ve yet to see any concrete response to this about changes to the direction of the game, or even if there will for sure be changes in response to our feedback.
I would love to know if we are actually being heard and changes are actually being made? Seems like a long time to not hear anything.
Some of you are like kids sitting in the back seat asking their parents if you're there yet I swear
I wonder how it would work for you if you were still in the alliance which started the b- movement and whose leader has been throwing temper tantrums like a petulant child on his twitter account. I mean, ffs, he even quoted Elie Wiesel to make a point about his stance against Kabam. Yeah, quote a Holocaust survivor's inspirational quote about standing up to evil to justify your boycott of a game.
Some of you are like kids sitting in the back seat asking their parents if you're there yet I swear
You act like people don’t put their money into the game and are just acting liking spoiled kids rather than dissatisfied customers.
You say that like those are mutually exclusive. As a business owner, I can attest they are not.
Kabam stated multiple times they've taken this feedback into consideration and discussing internally what they intended to do about it, but that they would be taking some time before responding and an immediate response wasn't happening. If that's unacceptable to someone, that's their prerogative. But rhetorically wondering aloud why Kabam is doing exactly what they said they would do isn't expressing dissatisfaction of any constructive kind.
My paying customers deserve to have their feedback heard, and to have their feedback responded to on a reasonable timescale. But their rights are not unlimited, and incessantly demanding status reports when I have nothing more to add is not one of the rights I grant to paying customers. If that's what they think their money buys, they can buy it from someone else.
Also, as a paying customer every minute the devs spend crafting forum messages that are intended to placate the players demanding status while saying exactly nothing because they can't talk about internal development that is in flux or hasn't been decided yet is taking time away from what I want them working on, which is the best possible road map moving forward. So as a paying customer representing paying customers that value productivity over meaningless hand-holding, I'd like them to only come back to say something when they have something meaningful to say. And if they are still working on developing a strategy moving forward, then there's nothing yet to say.
The quicker they get back to us, the less likely I think they are taking this seriously and the more I think they are responding only to be able to say they responded. Actually changing direction takes way more time than they've had yet.
Some of you are like kids sitting in the back seat asking their parents if you're there yet I swear
You act like people don’t put their money into the game and are just acting liking spoiled kids rather than dissatisfied customers.
You say that like those are mutually exclusive. As a business owner, I can attest they are not.
Kabam stated multiple times they've taken this feedback into consideration and discussing internally what they intended to do about it, but that they would be taking some time before responding and an immediate response wasn't happening. If that's unacceptable to someone, that's their prerogative. But rhetorically wondering aloud why Kabam is doing exactly what they said they would do isn't expressing dissatisfaction of any constructive kind.
My paying customers deserve to have their feedback heard, and to have their feedback responded to on a reasonable timescale. But their rights are not unlimited, and incessantly demanding status reports when I have nothing more to add is not one of the rights I grant to paying customers. If that's what they think their money buys, they can buy it from someone else.
Also, as a paying customer every minute the devs spend crafting forum messages that are intended to placate the players demanding status while saying exactly nothing because they can't talk about internal development that is in flux or hasn't been decided yet is taking time away from what I want them working on, which is the best possible road map moving forward. So as a paying customer representing paying customers that value productivity over meaningless hand-holding, I'd like them to only come back to say something when they have something meaningful to say. And if they are still working on developing a strategy moving forward, then there's nothing yet to say.
The quicker they get back to us, the less likely I think they are taking this seriously and the more I think they are responding only to be able to say they responded. Actually changing direction takes way more time than they've had yet.
I get that, I’ve worked in the restaurant industry long enough to know that ninety percent of the time the customers are rude and wrong, but my point is that name calling and insulting other players isn’t a productive action and doesn’t help anyone.
Comments
Also, sorry for the reality check. Effort put in =/ Results. Effort is the LEAST worth mentioning component that should be used as a reason because that is the bare minimum anyone is putting in. It takes a combination of effort, knowledge, skill and luck to be successful at anything.
Mic drop.
People who don’t grind, don’t spend and pray that they get lucky with their once-in-2-week 5*s are those who are in for disappointment.
I’ll use myself as an example again. I grind for milestones and shards every arena (4*B/4*F/5*F) with the occasional 3 day off when my work schedule gets too busy or I go on vacation with my familiar. I do all quests (Beginner/Normal/Heroic included), play war in Tier 2/3 where item expenditure is relatively minimal, DON’T spend on crystals.
As a result, I open 1-2 5*s on a weekly basis, and have almost all the “god/beyond god” tiers in the game.
Once again, effort is the bare minimum.
Mic drop.
When I recruit for my alliance, skill is one of the less important parts for consideration. It can be trained and improved upon, unlike attitude and commitment to the team.
So if people are less skilled, they should be working on improving that aspect, no? Rather than complain and try to make things easier for them at their current skill level. If this isn’t an “entitled” mentality, what is?
People who have explored A6 have my respect, regardless if they spent to pass it, or cleared it through skill. They persevered through building their deep rosters, either using money, effort and or time, and are rewarded with end game rewards earlier than the majority of players.
There are people in this game that I know, who practiced tirelessly against the Champion until they managed to get him down. People who ask for advice, listen to suggestions, put in the rank up materials and resources to acquire champs needed to clear content for the end game reward that they want. These people, deserve my utmost respect.
People who complain that content is too hard, or the game is unfair, or they don’t have enough gold/ISOs, don’t deserve the respect. And it is very reflective in my tone when talking to people like that.
It’s simple, who are you to decide that you DESERVE the end game rewards when you’ve not even put in the bare minimum of effort or money to build up your roster, that others have painstakingly put in?
All that is done is complain and hope that someone caves to give you what you want, make content easier so that YOU can pass through it without putting in the effort needed.
You also seem to be missing the point of alot whats been said in here and assume pople are complaining about difficulty. Its not people are opposed to challenging content. However there is difference to that challenge based on certain champions you pull therefore creating an uneven playing field which is determined not by effort or time invested but by RNG. Ofc the more you play and longer you play improves upon that by having more crystals but even then RNG could just not fall in your favor.
Example 6.2.5 Global node that requires a heavy or intercept to Remove charges.
Generally this isn't a issue every player can parry and heavy if they can't intercept with any champ.
Now the stun immune nodes. This forces players to either intercept or heavy counter adding an extra layer of difficulty based on skill to the fights. That's fine in itself. However you then have champions like Namor(sig 200), Corvus(duped), Ghost that can just ignore the global and fight normally thus making the difficulty of having to intercept or heavy counter irrelevant . Given the choice how would you deal with these fights ? ofc you would much prefer the easier option which is those champs because they bypass the challenge. So is that really challenging content or is it more a case of get the right champs then do the fights ?
This is the issue with a lot of stuff in act 6 where the counters to the mechanics are small and the investment in ranking up lesser champions that can do the fight holds little value to the players. Taking a champion to r4 is quite an investment particularly gold wise. We were told that r5 4*s were excluded to avoid a frustrating experience for players which to me suggests Kabam felt they weren't strong enough which means r3 5* are similar in that regard. So r4 and r5 champions are more or less encouraged to be used. As you progress through the chapters the attack and health values keep going up that it then becomes more encouraging to use r5 5* and r1/2 6*s.
My own personal experience in this regard is in 6.2.5 the cosmic path which has a 100% bleed sparky among other things on the path. But for this fight I had no Corvus or even KG. My only cosmic bleed immune was Groot. In the last 2-3 months i have since pulled both KG and Corvus. But 6.2. came out over a year ago. Am i really expected to invest so heavily in a champion like groot who needs a rework just for this fight ? Ofc i could use the 5th Slot people will argue. However the path has so many difficult matches with so many different mechanics that i wouldn't have an option with other cosmic champs for those fights. Going back to investment in this regards. Corvus would be useful for all paths i could bring him in as he also is good for the global where as groot.. well you know. Had we not had the class gates my options go from groot to sentinel, Omega, Emma, MS, IWIM, Luke Cage all at r4 or higher.
Also fighting the fights as they were designed there is no reward for doing that. So again this favors those with good RNG more so then skill.
Now if they added some buff you got for fighting with intercepts or landing a heavy on champion not stunned such as gaining a fury to increase damage people would have a greater incentive to go in and do the challenge because, ok RNG hasn't been kind, but if you play a certain way you can alleviate that somewhat and get past the content with skill.
Second, who are YOU to decide that others haven't put in effort? All I see is you being a condescending **** to people and calling everyone mid-tier. You don't know how people play and what effort they put in.
Skill is definitely the main thing since you don't grind, but can't say that having the right champs in the roster hasn't helped.
oh i know, i just used that as an example to illustrate the disparity in the value of counters for some of these specific fights. As the fight is designed to use a bleed immune otherwise your lose 100% of your health so to avoid the bleed my option was groot which isn't a fun time lol. I have been using Hype with willpower and then triggering Cosmic healing to get past the fight.
But appreciate you trying to help with the suggestion
Release the data every month of how many people completed Act5 100% , Act6 100% ,LOL 100% , AOL 100% and Variants(1,2,3& 4 separately)100%
This will throw a light on the State of Game to some extent as these are permanent quests and it isn’t that tough to datamine such stuff for a little bit of transparency in game
3.5 weeks since this thread was created and I’ve yet to see any concrete response to this about changes to the direction of the game, or even if there will for sure be changes in response to our feedback.
I would love to know if we are actually being heard and changes are actually being made?
Seems like a long time to not hear anything.
Kabam stated multiple times they've taken this feedback into consideration and discussing internally what they intended to do about it, but that they would be taking some time before responding and an immediate response wasn't happening. If that's unacceptable to someone, that's their prerogative. But rhetorically wondering aloud why Kabam is doing exactly what they said they would do isn't expressing dissatisfaction of any constructive kind.
My paying customers deserve to have their feedback heard, and to have their feedback responded to on a reasonable timescale. But their rights are not unlimited, and incessantly demanding status reports when I have nothing more to add is not one of the rights I grant to paying customers. If that's what they think their money buys, they can buy it from someone else.
Also, as a paying customer every minute the devs spend crafting forum messages that are intended to placate the players demanding status while saying exactly nothing because they can't talk about internal development that is in flux or hasn't been decided yet is taking time away from what I want them working on, which is the best possible road map moving forward. So as a paying customer representing paying customers that value productivity over meaningless hand-holding, I'd like them to only come back to say something when they have something meaningful to say. And if they are still working on developing a strategy moving forward, then there's nothing yet to say.
The quicker they get back to us, the less likely I think they are taking this seriously and the more I think they are responding only to be able to say they responded. Actually changing direction takes way more time than they've had yet.