Devil of Hell's Kitchen Overhaul: Thoughts?

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Comments

  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Member Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    edited December 2021
    Rookiie said:

    DDHK’s entire kit is designed to punish DDHK. Let me explain:

    1) Purify mechanic in Murdock Boy: why does it only purify non-damaging debuffs?
    I would understand if it purified one of EACH debuff; damaging AND non-damaging.
    But no, you want to purify non-damaging debuffs ONLY. A source of regen which DDHK is sorely lacking, AND you don’t want him to purify damaging debuffs? Are you TRYING to make sure he takes damage?
    I ask you this, Kabam: what does The Unbreakable Spirit of Battlin’ Jack Murdock stand for? Because you have done EVERYTHING to make sure that his spirit is everything but Unbreakable.

    2) Setting the base regen to 40%, and giving him less potent healing through a mechanic that comes and goes. No words here, it’s been covered too many times. Just watch @FluffyPigMonster ’s video and see how he loses 48% of his health without taking a single hit. Unviable, and unusable.

    3) The damage, giving him 5-star Rank 4 values for Cruelty, Precision and Fury when he is a 6-star Rank 3 champion.
    Kabam, look at Kingpin, who is wildly successful. The bonus Attack in Kingpin’s kit ranges from +3000 to +8900.
    In comparison, DDHK’s highest Attack bonus is +2500. And sometimes he sacrifices Attack bonuses (Rage) for other Attack bonuses (Fury).
    Why do things cancel out in his kit? What is the principle here? The trade offs aren’t worth it. Neither with the regen, nor with the damage.

    4) The synergies. You locked his best utility behind synergies with Spider-Gwen, the Punisher (seriously? a trophy champ), Elektra and Psylocke. None of these champions will uplift your team, though Spider-Gwen is a beast in her own right. So why lock essential utility behind weak synergy partners? Also the Martyr synergy cancels itself out (yet again), where the increase in duration comes at a cost of Combo meter, which to regain requires … wait for it … DURATION.

    Please pass on this feedback @Kabam Miike , hopefully @Kabam John will read these points and address them soon enough.


    That is very insightful. Amazing that you have that perspective of punishing the champ.

    That’s Frank Castle’s job!
  • RookiieRookiie Member Posts: 4,821 ★★★★★
    edited December 2021

    Rookiie said:

    DDHK’s entire kit is designed to punish DDHK. Let me explain:

    1) Purify mechanic in Murdock Boy: why does it only purify non-damaging debuffs?
    I would understand if it purified one of EACH debuff; damaging AND non-damaging.
    But no, you want to purify non-damaging debuffs ONLY. A source of regen which DDHK is sorely lacking, AND you don’t want him to purify damaging debuffs? Are you TRYING to make sure he takes damage?
    I ask you this, Kabam: what does The Unbreakable Spirit of Battlin’ Jack Murdock stand for? Because you have done EVERYTHING to make sure that his spirit is everything but Unbreakable.

    2) Setting the base regen to 40%, and giving him less potent healing through a mechanic that comes and goes. No words here, it’s been covered too many times. Just watch @FluffyPigMonster ’s video and see how he loses 48% of his health without taking a single hit. Unviable, and unusable.

    3) The damage, giving him 5-star Rank 4 values for Cruelty, Precision and Fury when he is a 6-star Rank 3 champion.
    Kabam, look at Kingpin, who is wildly successful. The bonus Attack in Kingpin’s kit ranges from +3000 to +8900.
    In comparison, DDHK’s highest Attack bonus is +2500. And sometimes he sacrifices Attack bonuses (Rage) for other Attack bonuses (Fury).
    Why do things cancel out in his kit? What is the principle here? The trade offs aren’t worth it. Neither with the regen, nor with the damage.

    4) The synergies. You locked his best utility behind synergies with Spider-Gwen, the Punisher (seriously? a trophy champ), Elektra and Psylocke. None of these champions will uplift your team, though Spider-Gwen is a beast in her own right. So why lock essential utility behind weak synergy partners? Also the Martyr synergy cancels itself out (yet again), where the increase in duration comes at a cost of Combo meter, which to regain requires … wait for it … DURATION.

    Please pass on this feedback @Kabam Miike , hopefully @Kabam John will read these points and address them soon enough.


    That is very insightful. Amazing that you have that perspective of punishing the champ.

    That’s Frank Castle’s job!

    (Adding this comment to bypass filter)

    Lol maybe Frank Castle paid @Kabam John a visit last December.

    I don’t know when Kabam will recognize that this is a failure of a buff. Not because the design is poor, but because someone decided to give DDHK:

    30% of his potential unawakened
    40% of his potential awakened
    70% of his potential at max sig
    100% of his potential at max sig with synergies

    All of that, and where did he land? Bang average.

    If they decided to tune him up in a way where he gets:

    60% of his potential unawakened
    70% of his potential awakened
    90% of his potential at max sig
    100% of his potential at max sig with synergies

    That approach would be much better for him.

    And to do that, requires a tune-up.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Member Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Rookiie said:

    DDHK’s entire kit is designed to punish DDHK. Let me explain:

    1) Purify mechanic in Murdock Boy: why does it only purify non-damaging debuffs?
    I would understand if it purified one of EACH debuff; damaging AND non-damaging.
    But no, you want to purify non-damaging debuffs ONLY. A source of regen which DDHK is sorely lacking, AND you don’t want him to purify damaging debuffs? Are you TRYING to make sure he takes damage?
    I ask you this, Kabam: what does The Unbreakable Spirit of Battlin’ Jack Murdock stand for? Because you have done EVERYTHING to make sure that his spirit is everything but Unbreakable.

    2) Setting the base regen to 40%, and giving him less potent healing through a mechanic that comes and goes. No words here, it’s been covered too many times. Just watch @FluffyPigMonster ’s video and see how he loses 48% of his health without taking a single hit. Unviable, and unusable.

    3) The damage, giving him 5-star Rank 4 values for Cruelty, Precision and Fury when he is a 6-star Rank 3 champion.
    Kabam, look at Kingpin, who is wildly successful. The bonus Attack in Kingpin’s kit ranges from +3000 to +8900.
    In comparison, DDHK’s highest Attack bonus is +2500. And sometimes he sacrifices Attack bonuses (Rage) for other Attack bonuses (Fury).
    Why do things cancel out in his kit? What is the principle here? The trade offs aren’t worth it. Neither with the regen, nor with the damage.

    4) The synergies. You locked his best utility behind synergies with Spider-Gwen, the Punisher (seriously? a trophy champ), Elektra and Psylocke. None of these champions will uplift your team, though Spider-Gwen is a beast in her own right. So why lock essential utility behind weak synergy partners? Also the Martyr synergy cancels itself out (yet again), where the increase in duration comes at a cost of Combo meter, which to regain requires … wait for it … DURATION.

    Please pass on this feedback @Kabam Miike , hopefully @Kabam John will read these points and address them soon enough.


    That is very insightful. Amazing that you have that perspective of punishing the champ.

    That’s Frank Castle’s job!

    (Adding this comment to bypass filter)

    Lol maybe Frank Castle paid @Kabam John a visit last December.

    I don’t know when Kabam will recognize that this is a failure of a buff. Not because the design is poor, but because someone decided to give DDHK:

    30% of his potential unawakened
    40% of his potential awakened
    70% of his potential at max sig
    100% of his potential at max sig with synergies

    All of that, and where did he land? Bang average.

    If they decided to tune him up in a way where he gets:

    60% of his potential unawakened
    70% of his potential awakened
    90% of his potential at max sig
    100% of his potential at max sig with synergies

    That approach would be much better for him.

    And to do that, requires a tune-up.
    Maybe for damage. For regen it should just be normal regen with the reduced recovery rate for the rage. It’s been proven with other champs that it won’t make him ridiculous.
  • RookiieRookiie Member Posts: 4,821 ★★★★★

    Rookiie said:

    Rookiie said:

    DDHK’s entire kit is designed to punish DDHK. Let me explain:

    1) Purify mechanic in Murdock Boy: why does it only purify non-damaging debuffs?
    I would understand if it purified one of EACH debuff; damaging AND non-damaging.
    But no, you want to purify non-damaging debuffs ONLY. A source of regen which DDHK is sorely lacking, AND you don’t want him to purify damaging debuffs? Are you TRYING to make sure he takes damage?
    I ask you this, Kabam: what does The Unbreakable Spirit of Battlin’ Jack Murdock stand for? Because you have done EVERYTHING to make sure that his spirit is everything but Unbreakable.

    2) Setting the base regen to 40%, and giving him less potent healing through a mechanic that comes and goes. No words here, it’s been covered too many times. Just watch @FluffyPigMonster ’s video and see how he loses 48% of his health without taking a single hit. Unviable, and unusable.

    3) The damage, giving him 5-star Rank 4 values for Cruelty, Precision and Fury when he is a 6-star Rank 3 champion.
    Kabam, look at Kingpin, who is wildly successful. The bonus Attack in Kingpin’s kit ranges from +3000 to +8900.
    In comparison, DDHK’s highest Attack bonus is +2500. And sometimes he sacrifices Attack bonuses (Rage) for other Attack bonuses (Fury).
    Why do things cancel out in his kit? What is the principle here? The trade offs aren’t worth it. Neither with the regen, nor with the damage.

    4) The synergies. You locked his best utility behind synergies with Spider-Gwen, the Punisher (seriously? a trophy champ), Elektra and Psylocke. None of these champions will uplift your team, though Spider-Gwen is a beast in her own right. So why lock essential utility behind weak synergy partners? Also the Martyr synergy cancels itself out (yet again), where the increase in duration comes at a cost of Combo meter, which to regain requires … wait for it … DURATION.

    Please pass on this feedback @Kabam Miike , hopefully @Kabam John will read these points and address them soon enough.


    That is very insightful. Amazing that you have that perspective of punishing the champ.

    That’s Frank Castle’s job!

    (Adding this comment to bypass filter)

    Lol maybe Frank Castle paid @Kabam John a visit last December.

    I don’t know when Kabam will recognize that this is a failure of a buff. Not because the design is poor, but because someone decided to give DDHK:

    30% of his potential unawakened
    40% of his potential awakened
    70% of his potential at max sig
    100% of his potential at max sig with synergies

    All of that, and where did he land? Bang average.

    If they decided to tune him up in a way where he gets:

    60% of his potential unawakened
    70% of his potential awakened
    90% of his potential at max sig
    100% of his potential at max sig with synergies

    That approach would be much better for him.

    And to do that, requires a tune-up.
    Maybe for damage. For regen it should just be normal regen with the reduced recovery rate for the rage. It’s been proven with other champs that it won’t make him ridiculous.

    Regen is the base. Step 0. The first thing that needs to be done.

    Damage and utility need to be tuned up so that he can come into his own. This will get him to 60%.

    Awakening and max sig are fine as they are. This will get him to 90%.

    If damage and utility are tuned up, then synergies can be tuned down. This should give him the last 10% that he needs.

    Then, testing needs to be done to make sure he’s still not underwhelming, and not too overpowered.
  • RookiieRookiie Member Posts: 4,821 ★★★★★
    If DDHK is going to welcome visitors from Hell’s Kitchen in February, he needs to be ready.
    Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Elektra also aren’t ready.
    So imo one overhaul (IF) , one moderate buff (Luke Cage) and a value buff for DDHK is a great way to welcome the arrival of the Hell’s Kitchen event.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Member Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    If DDHK is going to welcome visitors from Hell’s Kitchen in February, he needs to be ready.
    Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Elektra also aren’t ready.
    So imo one overhaul (IF) , one moderate buff (Luke Cage) and a value buff for DDHK is a great way to welcome the arrival of the Hell’s Kitchen event.

    The event is February? Oh man @Kabam Miike please let us know if you’re reading this.
  • ChobblyChobbly Member Posts: 948 ★★★★
    edited December 2021
    I think that February would be perfect for buffs like this. It would fit in with the event for the month so well - let's hope it's a Defenders spectacular.

    I think Luke Cage still has some utility, but Elektra and the Iron Fists could definitely do with some work. It would be great if Elektra could do something based around there Black Sky arc - lots of potential there for something pretty cool.

    Plus, wouldn't it be great to actually get an effective Defenders synergy team in the game?
  • RookiieRookiie Member Posts: 4,821 ★★★★★
    Chobbly said:

    I think that February would be perfect for buffs like this. It would fit in with the event for the month so well - let's hope it's a Defenders spectacular.

    I think Luke Cage still has some utility, but Elektra and the Iron Fists could definitely do with some work. It would be great if Elektra could do something based around there Black Sky arc - lots of potential there for something pretty cool.

    Plus, wouldn't it be great to actually get an effective Defenders synergy team in the game?

    By Jove, I would pay a premium for an effective Defenders synergy team.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Member Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Chobbly said:

    I think that February would be perfect for buffs like this. It would fit in with the event for the month so well - let's hope it's a Defenders spectacular.

    I think Luke Cage still has some utility, but Elektra and the Iron Fists could definitely do with some work. It would be great if Elektra could do something based around there Black Sky arc - lots of potential there for something pretty cool.

    Plus, wouldn't it be great to actually get an effective Defenders synergy team in the game?

    By Jove, I would pay a premium for an effective Defenders synergy team.
    I choked on my lunch when I read “by Jove”

    And I agree 100%
  • RookiieRookiie Member Posts: 4,821 ★★★★★

    Rookiie said:

    Chobbly said:

    I think that February would be perfect for buffs like this. It would fit in with the event for the month so well - let's hope it's a Defenders spectacular.

    I think Luke Cage still has some utility, but Elektra and the Iron Fists could definitely do with some work. It would be great if Elektra could do something based around there Black Sky arc - lots of potential there for something pretty cool.

    Plus, wouldn't it be great to actually get an effective Defenders synergy team in the game?

    By Jove, I would pay a premium for an effective Defenders synergy team.
    I choked on my lunch when I read “by Jove”

    And I agree 100%

    Oops 🤣 sorry!
  • ChobblyChobbly Member Posts: 948 ★★★★

    I was looking for clues to the Hell’s Kitchen event. Couldnt see any at first glance.

    Regardless, a nice quick adjustment before then is going to make it all worthwhile.

    It was mentioned in the story breakdown video for next year, between the two mutant events in Jan and March, if I remember correctly. But yes, a quick adjustment could be done because they've done it before.

    The Hell's Kitchen event could be really interesting.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Member Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Has anyone used his rage and kept health at 100% indefinitely?
  • ChobblyChobbly Member Posts: 948 ★★★★
    @FluffyPigMonster the Regen adjustment is needed. Zero argument from me, it's my biggest issue with the kit.

    @Rookiie , you made a comment a while back about the kit actually working against itself.

    When sketching some ideas for a post a while back, I did wonder if there was a way to link DDHK's special attacks and buffs together. This is what is stitched together, using the little-used SP1 as the base to bring some aspects of the kit together.

    Special 1 – Condemn
    On initiation, 100% chance to boost Critical Rating by 700 for 15 seconds.
    On the final hit, pause the duration of all personal Fury Buffs and Righteous Wrath Passives for 10 seconds.

    A possible rotation would then be SP3 (if opponent not bleed immune), SP2 with full Rage countdown, SP2 and if possible another SP2. Then, switch over to using the SP1 repeatedly to prolong the multiple Fury Buffs and Righteous Wrath.

    It would also give the Rage Debuff at the start of the SP2 a reason to stick around, to delay the gaining of the Fury Buff so the larger stack can be paused. Plus, it would mean the specials actually were related to one another in terms of function and functioned as a cohesive 'whole'.


    Of course, doing something like this would be more work than just increasing the durations - if it was that or nothing of course I'd take that.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Member Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Chobbly said:

    @FluffyPigMonster the Regen adjustment is needed. Zero argument from me, it's my biggest issue with the kit.

    @Rookiie , you made a comment a while back about the kit actually working against itself.

    When sketching some ideas for a post a while back, I did wonder if there was a way to link DDHK's special attacks and buffs together. This is what is stitched together, using the little-used SP1 as the base to bring some aspects of the kit together.

    Special 1 – Condemn
    On initiation, 100% chance to boost Critical Rating by 700 for 15 seconds.
    On the final hit, pause the duration of all personal Fury Buffs and Righteous Wrath Passives for 10 seconds.

    A possible rotation would then be SP3 (if opponent not bleed immune), SP2 with full Rage countdown, SP2 and if possible another SP2. Then, switch over to using the SP1 repeatedly to prolong the multiple Fury Buffs and Righteous Wrath.

    It would also give the Rage Debuff at the start of the SP2 a reason to stick around, to delay the gaining of the Fury Buff so the larger stack can be paused. Plus, it would mean the specials actually were related to one another in terms of function and functioned as a cohesive 'whole'.


    Of course, doing something like this would be more work than just increasing the durations - if it was that or nothing of course I'd take that.

    That’s a great idea. Pausing debuffs all around. It would give the SP1 purpose.
  • RookiieRookiie Member Posts: 4,821 ★★★★★
    Chobbly said:

    @FluffyPigMonster the Regen adjustment is needed. Zero argument from me, it's my biggest issue with the kit.

    @Rookiie , you made a comment a while back about the kit actually working against itself.

    When sketching some ideas for a post a while back, I did wonder if there was a way to link DDHK's special attacks and buffs together. This is what is stitched together, using the little-used SP1 as the base to bring some aspects of the kit together.

    Special 1 – Condemn
    On initiation, 100% chance to boost Critical Rating by 700 for 15 seconds.
    On the final hit, pause the duration of all personal Fury Buffs and Righteous Wrath Passives for 10 seconds.

    A possible rotation would then be SP3 (if opponent not bleed immune), SP2 with full Rage countdown, SP2 and if possible another SP2. Then, switch over to using the SP1 repeatedly to prolong the multiple Fury Buffs and Righteous Wrath.

    It would also give the Rage Debuff at the start of the SP2 a reason to stick around, to delay the gaining of the Fury Buff so the larger stack can be paused. Plus, it would mean the specials actually were related to one another in terms of function and functioned as a cohesive 'whole'.


    Of course, doing something like this would be more work than just increasing the durations - if it was that or nothing of course I'd take that.

    Awesome write up @Chobbly !
    While it would be great for the SP1 to do something, I think what you mentioned to me and FPM about DDHK having an Energize buff from his SP1 would be the best case scenario. I think that could also help stitch his kit together such that the SP2 and SP3 will be more easily accessible.
    Gotta wait and see what they give us though.
  • ChobblyChobbly Member Posts: 948 ★★★★
    Whilst Energize on the SP1 would be nice, I suspect the reality of it is that the duration would need to be something ridiculous in order to negate the impact it would have on rotations. It would need to pay back the time cost of the SP1 and then be worthwhile enough to at least get to one or two SP2s. Thinking about it, the economy of it being triggered on an SP doesn't really work. Energize would need to be an always Active ability or triggering on basic hits.

    The reason why I think pausing Buffs could work better is that it works after the fact, doesn't create conflict with power gain nodes and the duration only needs to be long enough to cover an average time of getting to the SP1, the animation time of the SP1 and then whatever the actual 'real' benefit of the pause would be.

    But yeah, it's all kinds of academic really. I'm just hopeful we'll get something.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Member Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Chobbly said:

    Whilst Energize on the SP1 would be nice, I suspect the reality of it is that the duration would need to be something ridiculous in order to negate the impact it would have on rotations. It would need to pay back the time cost of the SP1 and then be worthwhile enough to at least get to one or two SP2s. Thinking about it, the economy of it being triggered on an SP doesn't really work. Energize would need to be an always Active ability or triggering on basic hits.

    The reason why I think pausing Buffs could work better is that it works after the fact, doesn't create conflict with power gain nodes and the duration only needs to be long enough to cover an average time of getting to the SP1, the animation time of the SP1 and then whatever the actual 'real' benefit of the pause would be.

    But yeah, it's all kinds of academic really. I'm just hopeful we'll get something.

    The data is in, and it includes champs with the likes of iBom, Diablo, etc. It’s a matter of time
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Member Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    I turned off liquid courage and double edge. He was doing fine UNTIL I had 1 debuff (DOT) applied to me. Then it was so painful.

    @Kabam Miike any chance we could get an update there?
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Member Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Invisible Woman in AQ

    Looks like a job for….

    Everyone knows
  • TerraTerra Member Posts: 8,452 ★★★★★

    Invisible Woman in AQ

    Looks like a job for….

    Everyone knows

    "I can still smell you"
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Member Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    It’s funny, and I get to use him but I turned off liquid courage and double edge (costs units) and if I get 1 debuff on me it’s like 40% health gone.

    He’s cool and can do a bunch but the guy just isn’t sustainable without perfect play.
  • GrandOldKaiGrandOldKai Member Posts: 789 ★★★★
    Terra said:

    Invisible Woman in AQ

    Looks like a job for….

    Everyone knows

    "I can still smell you"
    I still wonder sometimes how he can hit Ghost

    But I'm sure there's been times where I've successfully made Daredevil miss against Ghost.

    I don't think I'll quite understand that, but at least he has a niche there... though now I wonder what other options exist and what Daredevil offers in comparison.

    I also wonder what sort of rework OG Daredevil will get - hopefully they won't shaft his regen rate too...
  • ChobblyChobbly Member Posts: 948 ★★★★
    edited December 2021
    Sometimes @FluffyPigMonster you just get unlucky and tagged with a Debuff - for DDHK it's more than an inconvenience, it can wreck the fight. And yes of course he can gain health back with Rage but it's such a tiny trickle that the fight normally ends before it makes a significant difference either way.

    I really hope we can get an update to him. I totally appreciate that there are many other champs which need rework. If it's all that's possible due to other pressures is a tweak to the numbers, for Regen Rate and Buff durations, I'll certainly take it.

    I appreciate that Kabam walk a fine line with these sort of things. Announce something and expectations are rarely met. Announce nothing and it looks like nothing is happening.

    But all that said, it would be nice to get a response to this thread.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Member Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★

    Terra said:

    Invisible Woman in AQ

    Looks like a job for….

    Everyone knows

    "I can still smell you"
    I still wonder sometimes how he can hit Ghost

    But I'm sure there's been times where I've successfully made Daredevil miss against Ghost.

    I don't think I'll quite understand that, but at least he has a niche there... though now I wonder what other options exist and what Daredevil offers in comparison.

    I also wonder what sort of rework OG Daredevil will get - hopefully they won't shaft his regen rate too...
    I don’t believe Kabam will do the lower regen rate ever again. They can do the “lower recovery rate for X debuff”.

    That’s what I hope for DDHK. Easy fix
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Member Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Chobbly said:

    Sometimes @FluffyPigMonster you just get unlucky and tagged with a Debuff - for DDHK it's more than an inconvenience, it can wreck the fight. And yes of course he can gain health back with Rage but it's such a tiny trickle that the fight normally ends before it makes a significant difference either way.

    I really hope we can get an update to him. I totally appreciate that there are many other champs which need rework. If it's all that's possible due to other pressures is a tweak to the numbers, for Regen Rate and Buff durations, I'll certainly take it.

    I appreciate that Kabam walk a fine line with these sort of things. Announce something and expectations are rarely met. Announce nothing and it looks like nothing is happening.

    But all that said, it would be nice to get a response to this thread.

    One can hope. They fixed Hawkeye quickly - but that was a bug and not working as intended.

    DDHK is working as intended, but what is intended makes him not work well. The entire community would appreciate a candid response regarding the guy’s status.
This discussion has been closed.