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Why battlegrounds is the worst format they created.
The idea that rewards are the same for everyone isn’t actually true. My main is paragon and my alt is cavalier. The bg store has highly inflated prices for the cav. 1k 6* shards is 1200 token in cav, 450 in paragon store. Maybe that balances out the progression as my cav account has an at any given time about 20 wins for 5 loss in the match history. Whereas my more developed paragon (16 R4) has about 50% win ratio. I play casually my cav and have a lot of fun raking up victories, still in gold 2. Haven’t used any token for rewards almost. I play competitively with my paragon account and feel like a king when I win, and like a bum when I loose, in diamond 1 with two win right now, afraid to play more and lose.
I'm going to collect a lot of comments from various other conversations we've had in the forums over the last little while to address a lot of this thread, so forgive me if you've heard this before.
"If you die to a boss in any fight, you can say “ well i took iff “x”% of his health let me buy a revive and continue... In bg, if you die, you can’t continue for where you were at so you a set back... No other part of this game has this effect." We have chatted in past about how Battlegrounds is the first true competitive PVP mode in MCOC. Previously, every challenge could/would end in success, with enough time, energy and resources. Naturally, this means BGs is going to be a departure for players and is bound to cause some discomfort. Every single matchup between two players means 50% of that matchup is receiving a loss; this is inevitable.
"Can you can really blame ppl for hacking it when kabam can make it fair and enjoyable from the start." Yes. Yes we can blame people for hacking. In no way does frustration justify cheating. The game mode is fair insofar as everyone is dealing with the same system, and trying to circumnavigate that system out of frustration, or any other motivation, is not tolerated.
Why not create a casual mode, too? A casual would not operate in the fashion laid out in this thread. We are not looking to give the same rewards for less work. We understand that the lens many Summoners view the game through is one of: "Where can I get the best rewards; that's where I'm going to dedicate my time." But simply putting time into BGs does not result in rewards, as previously mentioned; the PVP nature of the mode requires you to overcome other Summoners. We have largely found the highest rewards from this game mode are going to the players who are putting in the most time.
Are you suggesting that nothing about Battlegrounds needs to change? Not at all. And we've talked about it repeatedly on the forums. Changes are coming to Battlegrounds structure and matchmaking, some that may have been suggested in this thread... It won't happen all at once and needs to be changed over time to avoid too many moving parts, but the team is constantly evaluating the game mode and are looking for opportunities to make improvements; they have some good ideas.
We have chatted a lot, and seen a lot of conversations, about how this game is growing to a point where you cannot reasonably expect to do everything in a given month. We have seen the growing pains for Summoners who don't want to prioritize or make choices about what to play and what to let slip. MCOC is growing to a point where you should play the game modes you enjoy most. There's something for everyone, even if you're not looking for a competitive mode.
Good morning Jax,
First, thank you for your response in this matter. I do want to highlight some potential issues that Kabam is most likely aware of, but want to express why these things are causing a lot of frustration within the player base and share opportunities which can alleviate that pressure while keeping Kabam’s goals and intentions somewhat still in place.
Kabam has to keep in mind that comic books and characters are a collector based past time. That means that the fans tend to be completists by nature and what every 1st print 1st edition, every action figure, etc possible and within their ability.
You also have a game based on skill and effort/time which awards accordingly. For all others there is an option to pay (hence the crystal stores and units).
You are right on that the people that put in the “most time” are getting the most rewards, but why aren’t more people “putting in time”? Simply saying “play the modes you like and get the best rewards for you” comes off as a little tone deaf. It isn’t a wrong statement, but it seems to fail at acknowledging the root of the issue or dismissive. I don’t think that it is intentional, but more of a potential oversight.
People are putting in the time due to the level of frustration and you and Kabam are correct that this is the most direct PVP and there has to be a winner and loser in a match. I’d like to think everyone acknowledges all this points, but there may be some out there that do not.
There are two things with the meta of Battlegrounds that I think can help reduce the amount of frustration on several player: 1) the cost of a Victory (in VC) for a loss 2) the price of Shields (and also Elder Marks) in the store
When you dissect those to issues, they (in my opinion) are linked to the overwhelming frustration being experienced by many. Why it might not be an issue for some players, it can be an issue for most.
Elder Marks can be ruled out, as Battlegrounds can be run on energy and energy is far cheaper. The problem with that area is the Solo and Alliance Event point structure. I think there is a considerable amount of Elder Marks rewarded in the milestones and in the tiered rewards.
However the cost of a shield is extremely expensive compare to the rewards. And it isn’t the loss that is costing the most issues with the upset players, it is the lose of progression. Kabam could remove the cost of a loss, but it seems part of the meta to monetize the Battlegrounds (and rightfully so, as so much time and resources was devoted to the content).
I am a player that plays as much as I can and spends a lot on the game, but I am not tied to a “top tier alliance”. I can tell you that 90 units or 1,450 tokens is way too much for a shield for what they were designed to do. So, expensive that it seems most people aren’t using them and those feeling the most frustration with lack of advancement.
Some of the best players will move forward with minimal cost, but the really good and decent players are the ones feeling the most strain of win to loss ratio and lack of movement. I would say it is because their abilities are fairly matched and thus they sit idle in VC with limited progression. This is frustrating and it is compounded when what could help them costs $3.34 in units or 2-3 hours grinding the arena.
To me, that is too high of a cost for a 1-time shield. If the shield was a 30 minute to an hour timer applied not just to one match, I think people will buy them more often. I never made it to GC to know the mechanics there, but I feel the VC meta has a far more strain.
In GC, everyone fights everyone and point deductions is expected. VC is a preliminary, and people should be able to make a reasonable amount of progression. If Kabam wants to keep the Victory loss, perhaps you need to look at the cost structure (easy fix) or the impact of spending 90 units on a shield as to have the frustrated players look to them as a viable purchase in order to engage in the Battlegrounds and “put the time in”.
1) it is a quick fix and very executable in a short time 2) it might help reduce frustration immediately by showing that Kabam is sensitive to the player’s feeling
It will not be a solution for everyone, but it might help out most players that are frustrated. I know I would appreciate the change. I don’t mind putting in the time, the issue is the cost is simply too high for the type of rewards.
The idea that rewards are the same for everyone isn’t actually true. My main is paragon and my alt is cavalier. The bg store has highly inflated prices for the cav. 1k 6* shards is 1200 token in cav, 450 in paragon store. Maybe that balances out the progression as my cav account has an at any given time about 20 wins for 5 loss in the match history. Whereas my more developed paragon (16 R4) has about 50% win ratio. I play casually my cav and have a lot of fun raking up victories, still in gold 2. Haven’t used any token for rewards almost. I play competitively with my paragon account and feel like a king when I win, and like a bum when I loose, in diamond 1 with two win right now, afraid to play more and lose.
Wrong.
Prices have nothing to do with the FACT that the rewards are the same for everyone. Where you buy groceries doesn't change how much money you make either.
The idea that rewards are the same for everyone isn’t actually true. My main is paragon and my alt is cavalier. The bg store has highly inflated prices for the cav. 1k 6* shards is 1200 token in cav, 450 in paragon store. Maybe that balances out the progression as my cav account has an at any given time about 20 wins for 5 loss in the match history. Whereas my more developed paragon (16 R4) has about 50% win ratio. I play casually my cav and have a lot of fun raking up victories, still in gold 2. Haven’t used any token for rewards almost. I play competitively with my paragon account and feel like a king when I win, and like a bum when I loose, in diamond 1 with two win right now, afraid to play more and lose.
Wrong.
Prices have nothing to do with the FACT that the rewards are the same for everyone. Where you buy groceries doesn't change how much money you make either.
Where you by groceries may not change how much money you make, but definitely can signify how much you can make by where you shop or how much you’re willing to spend.
Unfortunately (and more so a societal thing and not a Kabam thing) all this mode has done is shine a light on the people who think they deserve more, are better than you, it's not for you it's for us, get good because I'm not having a problem at all.
It's sad to read some of the comments being so one sided to exclusivity and not more inclusive. I'm at the top, forget about the people at the bottom .. give them some cookies and be done with them.
I enjoy Battlegrounds. I always make it to the GC rather smoothly. This season has been by far the least of that enjoyment. Not just because of the bugs but because it has highlighted one of the things that I think is unnecessary. Tokens being stripped away when you lose. If this game mode were free of bugs, free of the constant errors etc, then sure ... take the tokens. But since this mode can't guarantee that players aren't shafted, they should do away with it. I can't count the number of times I haven't been able to pick my team, got bugged with an instant KO, haven't been able to ban the proper defenders .. the list goes on. So how do you "get good" around game foolery? Why should I lose this match because of game foolery and be sent into the loop again?
Just be done with the token loss.
And it's not going to be the disruption people think it would be. I get it though ... money. You run the risk of the Victory shields going away but so what. Are they really that necessary in a competitive mode as you say? What's competitive about buying something to save your loss? So what's the goal then? Money you say? Of course.
But I say just do away with them and let losses and wins be losses and wins. It can't always be about adding another way to pilfer the pockets of players.
Line people up ... mano v mano and see who the best is without all the gimmicks and tricks.
If they get rid of the going back on a loss, they won't sell any shields. So you can count on that not happening
I think that is fairly obvious, which is why I suggest reducing the cost or making it a timer based item vs a 1-time use. 90 units is a lot for a 1-time use and to prevent the penalty of a loss.
The 200 unit cost of a relic crystal rubbed many wrong. The cost compared to what the relic does is way off. People complain about the cost of champ crystals at 300 units and we are to expect that the cost of a relic is worth 200?
Keep that in mind. Now you are in VC where rewards are award for moving to a new tier. At lower levels (Bronze and Silver where several Paragon and TB are stuck, even in Gold), you could be spending 90-450 units just to try and get enough Victories to get to the next level (Silver III into Silver II). Is that level of cost realistic to the rewards? No.
The only points people have in counter is: 1) Get Good 2) Don’t Play
In point 1, that assumes the person actually sucks. The truth is that several players are good, but a single bug or mistake causes a match loss. It is bound to happen and it is going to happen. However, it is dismissive to simply say “get good” when there is an item designed to help against this. It is just frankly priced too high when players at Paragon are either really, really good and the best at the game, or they are good, just not at the level of the best. Those that a good to pretty good have a close to 50/50 win to loss rate, which means stagnation and no progression. That is the heart of the frustration and they obviously don’t see the shields as a viable option, which means the price of those items are either too high or the return for the price is not enough to warrant the cost.
The other option of “don’t play”… well that means less time in the app, which turns to less interest in the game, which then turns into less overall purchases. You may think I am talking from my backside, but I work in Digital Marketing and work with partners like Google, TikTok, Facebook to name a few.
These services and apps look at how much people are engaging within the app and how much time. More means better, as more time means more ad revenue and thus more need for services to keep people within the app. Look at Tencent and how they became so successful with the making of QQ and then We Chat.
As a game company, Kabam’s desire is more people playing and people spending time in the game… that is why energy, pots and all these items are monetized. It is to keep you playing and it is their return on investment for a F2P game.
The question is, do you try to make money on a select few that will pay for ease of play and items designed to make content more manageable? Or, do you try and make money in a WalMart type fashion with a lower ROI per purchase, but with more people willing to buy? Only Kabam can answer that and how they want to move forward.
Gonna comment on the OP because that's why we're here, but I do want to say that I really appreciate and agree with what Jax said previously in this thread.
Here goes: First of all Battlegrounds CAN be a lot of fun when things go right, however that is very rare. - Is that very rare? What kind of data pool are you pulling from to back this up? I've personally had pretty decent luck in BGs when it comes to bugs/modders/connection drop etc (assuming this is what you mean when "things go right" although that is a super vague statement), and while I could be an outlier in the overall population, so could an experience when things rarely go right. -
Way back when BG was in early beta everyone loved it. Then they added the tracks. The victory track is an okay idea with a horribly bad execution. “Lets take the sweatest players, mixed them with the casuals, and have them fight it out for rewards. “ - For the record, not everybody loved it, and I feel like there have always been those who do not prefer the format. However, the whole point of a competitive mode is to mix together players in a.... competitive... format. Casuals can still play with friends, but if casuals want the same rewards as "sweaty" players, then they should have to compete for them. The nature of the mode.
Idk, doesnt sound like much fun for anyone other than the try hards. But thats not the big problem. - Again, the whole point of the mode is that the harder you try (and presumably the better you play), the better you get rewarded. This can be alleviated but not really taken away unless the mode is fundamentally different.
Arguably, those two groups would separate after the 1st week or so, so not a major issue. The issue is the design. Having to win 3 matches + or - is ok but having people lose “wins” is a major design flaw for casual players. - What is the difference between losing wins and having to win 3 matches + or - , is that not considering the - ?
Sure the try hards dont care, but the ppl only playing 3 matches a day it becomes bad. - Anyone spending ~30 minutes/day on a mode may not be a try hard, but is certainly not casual.
Lets count the feel bads. 1. You lose the match. Ok it happens to everyone but it is a fee bad. 2. Now the awesome win you just got is take away. Hope you enjoyed it while it was there! 3. God help you if the game glitched for some reason between defenders going unblockable to parry not working to abilities not triggering, ive seen it all. - This doesn't seem to have much of a point.
Ohh, and lets not forget about matchmaking. - You proceed to not mention matchmaking or making any point about it.
So why should anyone who is not competitive play this format??? - They can, with friendly matches. They shouldn't play it in competitive mode if they dont want to be competitive.
All you do is make ppl feel bad every third match. - You actually undersell this point. They make someone feel bad every match, it just isn't always you.
Can you can really blame ppl for hacking it when kabam can make it fair and enjoyable from the start. Obviously, dont hack but if someone just did it for the milestones and didnt affect the competitive players would you blame them??? - I can't even begin to describe how incorrect this is. Even beyond hacking in any other game mode, hacking in a competitive mode literally directly impacts every single player that you face, and then everyone below you in the ranked mode. I would blame them for doing somethng wrong because the act itself was wrong, regardless of the percieved impact.
Just want to dig deeper into this mentality for a second. Life is hard, is not always fair, and can be unenjoyable. Does that give people the right to take what makes your life enjoayble for themselves? Maybe you have a really whack morality system, but I assume that doing the wrong thing -and- negatively affecting others (or yourself) typically checks the box for worthy of blame. I'll also not go into the widespread ramifications of negatively affecting a system by doing things against the rules when others don't because "it doesn't affect them".
Kabam has locked the best store in the game behind the most painful experience in the game. All to make an extra few dollars on victory shield. - Most painful is subjective, and I doubt that victory shields is where they are making the most money when it comes to BGs.
Its shameful, I would argue that countenancing cheating is far more shameful than the actual actions and design of Kabam here.
I encourage ppl to play it as little as possible - Advice that people can take if they think your arguments hold merit.
Thank you Probably the best part of the whole post. I do prefer when people wrap things up in a respecful way.
Overall, not the best argument against BGs, nor extremely compelling. Hopefully I wasn't unreasonably rude or anything, but I wanted to add my thoughts what I tried to make a productive way.
The idea that rewards are the same for everyone isn’t actually true. My main is paragon and my alt is cavalier. The bg store has highly inflated prices for the cav. 1k 6* shards is 1200 token in cav, 450 in paragon store. Maybe that balances out the progression as my cav account has an at any given time about 20 wins for 5 loss in the match history. Whereas my more developed paragon (16 R4) has about 50% win ratio. I play casually my cav and have a lot of fun raking up victories, still in gold 2. Haven’t used any token for rewards almost. I play competitively with my paragon account and feel like a king when I win, and like a bum when I loose, in diamond 1 with two win right now, afraid to play more and lose.
Wrong.
Prices have nothing to do with the FACT that the rewards are the same for everyone. Where you buy groceries doesn't change how much money you make either.
Oh my god it does. The value of currency is everything. Making 120k in India is nothing close to making 120k in the US. You're not being paid the same
I can’t get past Gold. I haven’t played AW in two years. My roster is 100% offensively built to clear content. I don’t have the time to learn all these new complicated champs. I stick with about 10 I use for everything. I built my roster around this so those 10 champs can clear just about anything. The problem for me is that my roster rating is considerably lower than those with my same prestige. I routinely face 3m roster ratings compared to my 2m; even though prestige is the same. Add this to the silly medal progression method and I can never climb.
Prestige is such an arbitrary calculation with very little meaning to a players’ “strength”. Especially in a game mode where you bring 30 champions; not 5. It simply does not make sense that this has anything to do with matchmaking in BG.
At any rate, I have lowered my BG participation to near zero. Maybe 3-5 matches a month. The frustration is not worth it.
The idea that rewards are the same for everyone isn’t actually true. My main is paragon and my alt is cavalier. The bg store has highly inflated prices for the cav. 1k 6* shards is 1200 token in cav, 450 in paragon store. Maybe that balances out the progression as my cav account has an at any given time about 20 wins for 5 loss in the match history. Whereas my more developed paragon (16 R4) has about 50% win ratio. I play casually my cav and have a lot of fun raking up victories, still in gold 2. Haven’t used any token for rewards almost. I play competitively with my paragon account and feel like a king when I win, and like a bum when I loose, in diamond 1 with two win right now, afraid to play more and lose.
Wrong.
Prices have nothing to do with the FACT that the rewards are the same for everyone. Where you buy groceries doesn't change how much money you make either.
That’s not correct. If you go to a shop and one kilo of rice is 5€ for you, and 10€ for me, and if we both earn and spend 50€ you have 10kg of sugar and I go home with 5kg. Not the same. That’s the difference of rewards for the different progression levels.
Very honest question here with no attempt at trolling. For those that are struggling to get through VT, will you be satisfied to get to GC or will there be similar complaints about matchmaking once you reach GC? In other words, is the frustration here just the time it takes to get the rewards in the VT? If you are TB and match a monster account in the GC, will that be fair if you are similar rating? Or is it a mixture of account size/rating and BG rank that shifts more to BG rank the higher you climb in the GC?
There is little doubt that matchmaking in the GC is currently messed up as well. If I have a 120 rating, I'm currently going back and forth between matching a 200 rated player and a 80 rated player. Matchmaking seems to be happening faster this season, but the matchups are really odd.
My general wish when BGs were announced was that it would truly be competitive and not monetized in any way. The mode is not "directly" monetized except for those chasing the solo or alliance ranked rewards. But to be a true competition of skill, they should have limited the mode to 4* champs since everyone can fairly easily grind the arena for every 4* champ (though you still deal with the randomness of the draft). Unfortunately, ROI is a real thing in the business world, so we knew this would never happen.
I still love the game mode and would have probably hung it up if it didn't exist. During BG downtime, I am hardly engaged at all with the game.
The idea that rewards are the same for everyone isn’t actually true. My main is paragon and my alt is cavalier. The bg store has highly inflated prices for the cav. 1k 6* shards is 1200 token in cav, 450 in paragon store. Maybe that balances out the progression as my cav account has an at any given time about 20 wins for 5 loss in the match history. Whereas my more developed paragon (16 R4) has about 50% win ratio. I play casually my cav and have a lot of fun raking up victories, still in gold 2. Haven’t used any token for rewards almost. I play competitively with my paragon account and feel like a king when I win, and like a bum when I loose, in diamond 1 with two win right now, afraid to play more and lose.
Wrong.
Prices have nothing to do with the FACT that the rewards are the same for everyone. Where you buy groceries doesn't change how much money you make either.
That’s not correct. If you go to a shop and one kilo of rice is 5€ for you, and 10€ for me, and if we both earn and spend 50€ you have 10kg of sugar and I go home with 5kg. Not the same. That’s the difference of rewards for the different progression levels.
To extrapolate further, someone as a Paragon has a family of 6, while UC or Cav families may only be 2-3 people. Fewer mouths to feed, figuratively, unless they are gluttonous.
Where you by groceries may not change how much money you make, but definitely can signify how much you can make by where you shop or how much you’re willing to spend.
Rewards are the same, full stop. The store is a downstream consequence, not the reward.
The rewards are the trophy (money).
No one says that the rewards of working is buying a car; the rewards of working is the salary. If someone chooses to saves up salary (ie. progression level, or even saving up the tokens themselves ) to be able to buy a BMW vs a Camry, the car itself is not the reward, it is the money.
More specifically to the game: If completing content gets everyone a choice between 2k 6-star shards or a Mythic crystal, the reward is not 5 star Herc or the 6 star Iron Patriot or saving up for a Featured, it is the shards/crystal.
Some players have easier work (play 3 win 3), other players have to work harder (play 10 to be able to win 3), but they all get the same stipend of trophies. It is the same reward.
Very honest question here with no attempt at trolling. For those that are struggling to get through VT, will you be satisfied to get to GC or will there be similar complaints about matchmaking once you reach GC? In other words, is the frustration here just the time it takes to get the rewards in the VT? If you are TB and match a monster account in the GC, will that be fair if you are similar rating? Or is it a mixture of account size/rating and BG rank that shifts more to BG rank the higher you climb in the GC?
There is little doubt that matchmaking in the GC is currently messed up as well. If I have a 120 rating, I'm currently going back and forth between matching a 200 rated player and a 80 rated player. Matchmaking seems to be happening faster this season, but the matchups are really odd.
My general wish when BGs were announced was that it would truly be competitive and not monetized in any way. The mode is not "directly" monetized except for those chasing the solo or alliance ranked rewards. But to be a true competition of skill, they should have limited the mode to 4* champs since everyone can fairly easily grind the arena for every 4* champ (though you still deal with the randomness of the draft). Unfortunately, ROI is a real thing in the business world, so we knew this would never happen.
I still love the game mode and would have probably hung it up if it didn't exist. During BG downtime, I am hardly engaged at all with the game.
Seasonal Gold paragon player here.
I’ll be satisfied with a ladder based matchmaking. No calculations. No attempts to quantify “skill”. If I’m in gold and getting beat consistently, regardless of their account size, that I’m good with that. I know I can improve by leveling up roster depth, working on skills, champ knowledge, better drafting strategy, etc.
The problem rises when I know there are accounts much worse than mine that are higher and getting more rewards.
For example, I have an alt that I’m leveling up. I can climb faster on that account because I’ve played for years and have a much better grasp of using multiple champions than most of my fellow UC/low Cav opponents. So why does my mini account get more rewards than my main account?
Why do we have contradicting game modes? One game mode rewards prestige and another punishes it.
That makes no sense. The Store limits what you can buy based on progress. Which means the value is subjective. Also, people have needs earlier on in the game. Those needs are just different than the needs of people later on. No one has needs that are greater than the other. (Although I could make a case for developing Rosters just as easily, but that would tear the hole deeper.) This whole idea of "our needs are greater than yours" is really quite trivial. You can't measure the value in Filet Mignon when the Store offers hamburger.
Where you by groceries may not change how much money you make, but definitely can signify how much you can make by where you shop or how much you’re willing to spend.
Rewards are the same, full stop. The store is a downstream consequence, not the reward.
The rewards are the trophy (money).
No one says that the rewards of working is buying a car; the rewards of working is the salary. If someone chooses to saves up salary (ie. progression level, or even saving up the tokens themselves ) to be able to buy a BMW vs a Camry, the car itself is not the reward, it is the money.
More specifically to the game: If completing content gets everyone a choice between 2k 6-star shards or a Mythic crystal, the reward is not 5 star Herc or the 6 star Iron Patriot or saving up for a Featured, it is the shards/crystal.
Some players have easier work (play 3 win 3), other players have to work harder (play 10 to be able to win 3), but they all get the same stipend of trophies. It is the same reward.
Oh I know and I didn’t have anything to comment against that. Just wanted to respond with my own two cents with how I dealt regarding that comment and grocery stores
No one is forcing you to spend in the store before increasing your progression. If you choose to spend your paycheck immediately instead of waiting for a sale or to get to a cheaper store, that's on you.
The hoops some are trying to jump through to disprove a concrete fact is just amazing.
That's ridiculous. "Don't spend the Rewards you earn." Mkay.
Yeah totally. No one has ever hoarded in this game. Everyone must open every crystal immediately and use their rank-up mats on champs as soon as they get them. Get a Cosmic rank-up gem and only have SIM? Better rank him up! Do you hear yourself?
This game is all about holding onto resources to best use them. People will hold shards for 3 months for a featured crystal. I held onto 2 Abyss Nexux crystals for like 5 months for Idoom and got him in both crystals. Should I have popped them as soon as I got them when he wasn't in there yet?
People being shortsighted with their decisions doesn't change FACTs.
Not people who need the Resources to progress, and not all Players. The only people who hoard for months at a time are the people who have the ability to do so. They're hunting specific Champs, working on specific Rankings, and have enough to use while they hoard. Telling Players at earlier stages in the game to do other content and not use the Resources they earn is a poor suggestion for their progress.
I'm going to collect a lot of comments from various other conversations we've had in the forums over the last little while to address a lot of this thread, so forgive me if you've heard this before.
"If you die to a boss in any fight, you can say “ well i took iff “x”% of his health let me buy a revive and continue... In bg, if you die, you can’t continue for where you were at so you a set back... No other part of this game has this effect." We have chatted in past about how Battlegrounds is the first true competitive PVP mode in MCOC. Previously, every challenge could/would end in success, with enough time, energy and resources. Naturally, this means BGs is going to be a departure for players and is bound to cause some discomfort. Every single matchup between two players means 50% of that matchup is receiving a loss; this is inevitable.
"Can you can really blame ppl for hacking it when kabam can make it fair and enjoyable from the start." Yes. Yes we can blame people for hacking. In no way does frustration justify cheating. The game mode is fair insofar as everyone is dealing with the same system, and trying to circumnavigate that system out of frustration, or any other motivation, is not tolerated.
Why not create a casual mode, too? A casual would not operate in the fashion laid out in this thread. We are not looking to give the same rewards for less work. We understand that the lens many Summoners view the game through is one of: "Where can I get the best rewards; that's where I'm going to dedicate my time." But simply putting time into BGs does not result in rewards, as previously mentioned; the PVP nature of the mode requires you to overcome other Summoners. We have largely found the highest rewards from this game mode are going to the players who are putting in the most time.
Are you suggesting that nothing about Battlegrounds needs to change? Not at all. And we've talked about it repeatedly on the forums. Changes are coming to Battlegrounds structure and matchmaking, some that may have been suggested in this thread... It won't happen all at once and needs to be changed over time to avoid too many moving parts, but the team is constantly evaluating the game mode and are looking for opportunities to make improvements; they have some good ideas.
We have chatted a lot, and seen a lot of conversations, about how this game is growing to a point where you cannot reasonably expect to do everything in a given month. We have seen the growing pains for Summoners who don't want to prioritize or make choices about what to play and what to let slip. MCOC is growing to a point where you should play the game modes you enjoy most. There's something for everyone, even if you're not looking for a competitive mode.
I would like to add something to this.. I would dare anyone to give an example of ANY competitive mode, professional sport or anything at all... Where losing a match just slows u down instead of punishing u... The idea of losses not taking coins allows for brute force... Who cares if i lose.. i just gotta win 3 later... Does it matter if i lose 20 rounds in a row?.. winning 1 out of 10 will keep me climbing.. and that is not competition!
I would give as my example every sport or competition I can think of. NBA for instance: your wins and losses are collected over the season. After playing a set number those records are compared to determine playoff ranking. Losing doesn't affect it mathematically the same way as bg. To narrow it, in the playoffs losing a game stops your progress but does not take you backwards. Maybe shoots and ladders is the only game I can compare bg to equally.
It doesn't take u backwards.. u collect rewards and keep going... Can u drop from Silver 3 to Bronze 1?
Every bg tier is its own shoots and ladders board. When you finish the first board, you're moving to a separate game board that has a few more shoots, few less ladders, until you move to a board with almost only shoots and no ladders. Although it's kind of like there's no ladders in bg, since you either move forward one space at a time or go backwards.
I was short and simple on the answer and I apologize for that... The reason why u don't move backwards in my opinion is that you collected rewards. Exactly as u said.. u clear a board start a new one... A lot of people argue that you shouldnt start back to zero... In my opinion... Its the difference of gaming generations... For example: 1- Back in the day in gaming u lost a "life" you had to start the whole level from 0. IE games like super mario... 2- Newer generation got to "save" the game or start from a check point they reached.
Also i want to add something... And this is related to the ridiculous match making and putting 4 levels of progression to compete in the same game mode (UC, Cav, TB, Paragon); as you move up from Bronze to Silver and so on.. the level of difficulty stays exactly the same... It doesnt get more difficult, u still match with the same level of people you did before.. sometimes bigger accounts and sometimes smaller. The difficulty of the node stays exaxtly the same thru the whole VT...
This will be a never ending story... People wanting to remove lossing coins for lost matches.. pretty much shows the sense of entitlement thet got to reach to GC at least and claim all the prizes and milestones... I say fine.. remove lossing coins on lost matches.. but also remove the rewards for every time u climb up.. turn them into objectives.. Make it chain of objectives where you have to win 3 in a row regardless of VT progression.. cause with the silly matchmaking it doesnt matter wether u r in Silver or Plat... U still face the same strenght accounts..
God forbid you have to spend some units a month to make it thru VT to get prizes.. I mean everyone has to save those units for 4/7 or CM right...
Whoever disagrees with this, shows his true colors.. its not about advancing.. its about the entitlement of the prizes up to GC...
VT is completely broken, so have to just accept what it is and manage best you can - some people choose to buy shields, others use lower champs etc.. personally don’t care for either, want to use the best champs, I invested the resources into them!
Until they introduce tier rewards to match the tiered system (that everyone knows exists but for some reason no one wants to officially tell the customers what the rules are then) this debate will just go around in circles.
It’s almost funny that a pay to play/win game can operate without clear definition on the rules of play..
Comments
My main is paragon and my alt is cavalier.
The bg store has highly inflated prices for the cav. 1k 6* shards is 1200 token in cav, 450 in paragon store.
Maybe that balances out the progression as my cav account has an at any given time about 20 wins for 5 loss in the match history.
Whereas my more developed paragon (16 R4) has about 50% win ratio.
I play casually my cav and have a lot of fun raking up victories, still in gold 2. Haven’t used any token for rewards almost.
I play competitively with my paragon account and feel like a king when I win, and like a bum when I loose, in diamond 1 with two win right now, afraid to play more and lose.
First, thank you for your response in this matter. I do want to highlight some potential issues that Kabam is most likely aware of, but want to express why these things are causing a lot of frustration within the player base and share opportunities which can alleviate that pressure while keeping Kabam’s goals and intentions somewhat still in place.
Kabam has to keep in mind that comic books and characters are a collector based past time. That means that the fans tend to be completists by nature and what every 1st print 1st edition, every action figure, etc possible and within their ability.
You also have a game based on skill and effort/time which awards accordingly. For all others there is an option to pay (hence the crystal stores and units).
You are right on that the people that put in the “most time” are getting the most rewards, but why aren’t more people “putting in time”? Simply saying “play the modes you like and get the best rewards for you” comes off as a little tone deaf. It isn’t a wrong statement, but it seems to fail at acknowledging the root of the issue or dismissive. I don’t think that it is intentional, but more of a potential oversight.
People are putting in the time due to the level of frustration and you and Kabam are correct that this is the most direct PVP and there has to be a winner and loser in a match. I’d like to think everyone acknowledges all this points, but there may be some out there that do not.
There are two things with the meta of Battlegrounds that I think can help reduce the amount of frustration on several player:
1) the cost of a Victory (in VC) for a loss
2) the price of Shields (and also Elder Marks) in the store
When you dissect those to issues, they (in my opinion) are linked to the overwhelming frustration being experienced by many. Why it might not be an issue for some players, it can be an issue for most.
Elder Marks can be ruled out, as Battlegrounds can be run on energy and energy is far cheaper. The problem with that area is the Solo and Alliance Event point structure. I think there is a considerable amount of Elder Marks rewarded in the milestones and in the tiered rewards.
However the cost of a shield is extremely expensive compare to the rewards. And it isn’t the loss that is costing the most issues with the upset players, it is the lose of progression. Kabam could remove the cost of a loss, but it seems part of the meta to monetize the Battlegrounds (and rightfully so, as so much time and resources was devoted to the content).
I am a player that plays as much as I can and spends a lot on the game, but I am not tied to a “top tier alliance”. I can tell you that 90 units or 1,450 tokens is way too much for a shield for what they were designed to do. So, expensive that it seems most people aren’t using them and those feeling the most frustration with lack of advancement.
Some of the best players will move forward with minimal cost, but the really good and decent players are the ones feeling the most strain of win to loss ratio and lack of movement. I would say it is because their abilities are fairly matched and thus they sit idle in VC with limited progression. This is frustrating and it is compounded when what could help them costs $3.34 in units or 2-3 hours grinding the arena.
To me, that is too high of a cost for a 1-time shield. If the shield was a 30 minute to an hour timer applied not just to one match, I think people will buy them more often. I never made it to GC to know the mechanics there, but I feel the VC meta has a far more strain.
In GC, everyone fights everyone and point deductions is expected. VC is a preliminary, and people should be able to make a reasonable amount of progression. If Kabam wants to keep the Victory loss, perhaps you need to look at the cost structure (easy fix) or the impact of spending 90 units on a shield as to have the frustrated players look to them as a viable purchase in order to engage in the Battlegrounds and “put the time in”.
1) it is a quick fix and very executable in a short time
2) it might help reduce frustration immediately by showing that Kabam is sensitive to the player’s feeling
It will not be a solution for everyone, but it might help out most players that are frustrated. I know I would appreciate the change. I don’t mind putting in the time, the issue is the cost is simply too high for the type of rewards.
Prices have nothing to do with the FACT that the rewards are the same for everyone. Where you buy groceries doesn't change how much money you make either.
It's sad to read some of the comments being so one sided to exclusivity and not more inclusive. I'm at the top, forget about the people at the bottom .. give them some cookies and be done with them.
I enjoy Battlegrounds. I always make it to the GC rather smoothly. This season has been by far the least of that enjoyment. Not just because of the bugs but because it has highlighted one of the things that I think is unnecessary. Tokens being stripped away when you lose. If this game mode were free of bugs, free of the constant errors etc, then sure ... take the tokens. But since this mode can't guarantee that players aren't shafted, they should do away with it. I can't count the number of times I haven't been able to pick my team, got bugged with an instant KO, haven't been able to ban the proper defenders .. the list goes on. So how do you "get good" around game foolery? Why should I lose this match because of game foolery and be sent into the loop again?
Just be done with the token loss.
And it's not going to be the disruption people think it would be. I get it though ... money. You run the risk of the Victory shields going away but so what. Are they really that necessary in a competitive mode as you say? What's competitive about buying something to save your loss? So what's the goal then? Money you say? Of course.
But I say just do away with them and let losses and wins be losses and wins. It can't always be about adding another way to pilfer the pockets of players.
Line people up ... mano v mano and see who the best is without all the gimmicks and tricks.
The 200 unit cost of a relic crystal rubbed many wrong. The cost compared to what the relic does is way off. People complain about the cost of champ crystals at 300 units and we are to expect that the cost of a relic is worth 200?
Keep that in mind. Now you are in VC where rewards are award for moving to a new tier. At lower levels (Bronze and Silver where several Paragon and TB are stuck, even in Gold), you could be spending 90-450 units just to try and get enough Victories to get to the next level (Silver III into Silver II). Is that level of cost realistic to the rewards? No.
The only points people have in counter is:
1) Get Good
2) Don’t Play
In point 1, that assumes the person actually sucks. The truth is that several players are good, but a single bug or mistake causes a match loss. It is bound to happen and it is going to happen. However, it is dismissive to simply say “get good” when there is an item designed to help against this. It is just frankly priced too high when players at Paragon are either really, really good and the best at the game, or they are good, just not at the level of the best. Those that a good to pretty good have a close to 50/50 win to loss rate, which means stagnation and no progression. That is the heart of the frustration and they obviously don’t see the shields as a viable option, which means the price of those items are either too high or the return for the price is not enough to warrant the cost.
The other option of “don’t play”… well that means less time in the app, which turns to less interest in the game, which then turns into less overall purchases. You may think I am talking from my backside, but I work in Digital Marketing and work with partners like Google, TikTok, Facebook to name a few.
These services and apps look at how much people are engaging within the app and how much time. More means better, as more time means more ad revenue and thus more need for services to keep people within the app. Look at Tencent and how they became so successful with the making of QQ and then We Chat.
As a game company, Kabam’s desire is more people playing and people spending time in the game… that is why energy, pots and all these items are monetized. It is to keep you playing and it is their return on investment for a F2P game.
The question is, do you try to make money on a select few that will pay for ease of play and items designed to make content more manageable? Or, do you try and make money in a WalMart type fashion with a lower ROI per purchase, but with more people willing to buy? Only Kabam can answer that and how they want to move forward.
Prestige is such an arbitrary calculation with very little meaning to a players’ “strength”. Especially in a game mode where you bring 30 champions; not 5. It simply does not make sense that this has anything to do with matchmaking in BG.
At any rate, I have lowered my BG participation to near zero. Maybe 3-5 matches a month. The frustration is not worth it.
Maybe I’m just an outlier.
If you go to a shop and one kilo of rice is 5€ for you, and 10€ for me, and if we both earn and spend 50€ you have 10kg of sugar and I go home with 5kg.
Not the same.
That’s the difference of rewards for the different progression levels.
There is little doubt that matchmaking in the GC is currently messed up as well. If I have a 120 rating, I'm currently going back and forth between matching a 200 rated player and a 80 rated player. Matchmaking seems to be happening faster this season, but the matchups are really odd.
My general wish when BGs were announced was that it would truly be competitive and not monetized in any way. The mode is not "directly" monetized except for those chasing the solo or alliance ranked rewards. But to be a true competition of skill, they should have limited the mode to 4* champs since everyone can fairly easily grind the arena for every 4* champ (though you still deal with the randomness of the draft). Unfortunately, ROI is a real thing in the business world, so we knew this would never happen.
I still love the game mode and would have probably hung it up if it didn't exist. During BG downtime, I am hardly engaged at all with the game.
Dr. Zola
The rewards are the trophy (money).
No one says that the rewards of working is buying a car; the rewards of working is the salary. If someone chooses to saves up salary (ie. progression level, or even saving up the tokens themselves ) to be able to buy a BMW vs a Camry, the car itself is not the reward, it is the money.
More specifically to the game: If completing content gets everyone a choice between 2k 6-star shards or a Mythic crystal, the reward is not 5 star Herc or the 6 star Iron Patriot or saving up for a Featured, it is the shards/crystal.
Some players have easier work (play 3 win 3), other players have to work harder (play 10 to be able to win 3), but they all get the same stipend of trophies. It is the same reward.
I’ll be satisfied with a ladder based matchmaking. No calculations. No attempts to quantify “skill”. If I’m in gold and getting beat consistently, regardless of their account size, that I’m good with that. I know I can improve by leveling up roster depth, working on skills, champ knowledge, better drafting strategy, etc.
The problem rises when I know there are accounts much worse than mine that are higher and getting more rewards.
For example, I have an alt that I’m leveling up. I can climb faster on that account because I’ve played for years and have a much better grasp of using multiple champions than most of my fellow UC/low Cav opponents. So why does my mini account get more rewards than my main account?
Why do we have contradicting game modes? One game mode rewards prestige and another punishes it.
The Store limits what you can buy based on progress. Which means the value is subjective.
Also, people have needs earlier on in the game. Those needs are just different than the needs of people later on. No one has needs that are greater than the other. (Although I could make a case for developing Rosters just as easily, but that would tear the hole deeper.)
This whole idea of "our needs are greater than yours" is really quite trivial. You can't measure the value in Filet Mignon when the Store offers hamburger.
The hoops some are trying to jump through to disprove a concrete fact is just amazing.
Mkay.
This game is all about holding onto resources to best use them. People will hold shards for 3 months for a featured crystal. I held onto 2 Abyss Nexux crystals for like 5 months for Idoom and got him in both crystals. Should I have popped them as soon as I got them when he wasn't in there yet?
People being shortsighted with their decisions doesn't change FACTs.
The only people who hoard for months at a time are the people who have the ability to do so. They're hunting specific Champs, working on specific Rankings, and have enough to use while they hoard.
Telling Players at earlier stages in the game to do other content and not use the Resources they earn is a poor suggestion for their progress.
The reason why u don't move backwards in my opinion is that you collected rewards.
Exactly as u said.. u clear a board start a new one...
A lot of people argue that you shouldnt start back to zero... In my opinion... Its the difference of gaming generations...
For example:
1- Back in the day in gaming u lost a "life" you had to start the whole level from 0. IE games like super mario...
2- Newer generation got to "save" the game or start from a check point they reached.
Also i want to add something... And this is related to the ridiculous match making and putting 4 levels of progression to compete in the same game mode (UC, Cav, TB, Paragon); as you move up from Bronze to Silver and so on.. the level of difficulty stays exactly the same... It doesnt get more difficult, u still match with the same level of people you did before.. sometimes bigger accounts and sometimes smaller. The difficulty of the node stays exaxtly the same thru the whole VT...
I just mounted vibranium it cost me 800u in shield, 1 per week in store is not enough do something please
People wanting to remove lossing coins for lost matches.. pretty much shows the sense of entitlement thet got to reach to GC at least and claim all the prizes and milestones...
I say fine.. remove lossing coins on lost matches.. but also remove the rewards for every time u climb up.. turn them into objectives..
Make it chain of objectives where you have to win 3 in a row regardless of VT progression.. cause with the silly matchmaking it doesnt matter wether u r in Silver or Plat... U still face the same strenght accounts..
God forbid you have to spend some units a month to make it thru VT to get prizes.. I mean everyone has to save those units for 4/7 or CM right...
Whoever disagrees with this, shows his true colors.. its not about advancing.. its about the entitlement of the prizes up to GC...
Until they introduce tier rewards to match the tiered system (that everyone knows exists but for some reason no one wants to officially tell the customers what the rules are then) this debate will just go around in circles.
It’s almost funny that a pay to play/win game can operate without clear definition on the rules of play..