In that light, what we should be talking about is how much restitution is enough to do right by the players, how to take responsibility for the programming change to She-Hulk and how to avoid issues like this again.
The change control thing is a very long discussion unto itself, but I think if Kabam is going to offer compensation for the She Hulk change, the logical thing to do is to offer She Hulk specific rank down tickets to anyone who ranked up She Hulk from the time her buff was announced until today, commensurate with current rank. In other words, if you have a rank 4 She Hulk, you get one rank 4->3 rank down, one 3->2 rank down, and one 2->1 rank down. Each rank down ranks She Hulk down and drops an equivalent rank up ticket classed for science only. Also, they shouldn't be bankable: you have a fixed amount of time to use the RDTs and also the RUTs. Players would be specifically getting a chance to change that rank up decision to another rank up decision, not getting a bankable reward they can use in any other way.
I'd have no problem with offering them to anyone with a ranked She Hulk, but to me the critical problem is the way heavy combos are leveraged by the buffs. Prior to the buffs, it was mostly a curiosity and not a critical reason to rank up She Hulk. But I wouldn't quibble here.
I should also point out that for me this isn't just an issue with the 6.2 Champion. If this was just one fight, one fight out of the entire game doesn't justify rank down tickets in my opinion. This is something that affects the champion generally, which means this should be offered to anyone with She Hulk of any rank. If a player ranked up a 3* She Hulk because of this capability, their rank up decisions are just as valid as someone ranking up a 5* She Hulk to rank 5. We're not compensating for a nerf: nerfs happen. We're compensating for the players being presented with an unfair decision, and that unfair decision affects all players of every level of progress whether they were ranking a 6* or a 2*.
kabam sure knows how to get the community all wild up but guess what at the end of the day everyone will get over it and spend on the next champ just to get the “wasn’t working as intended” , as I always say only way to get ya voice heard is with ya pocket if you keep spending for this kind of service that’s what you will get.
I get what you're saying, but not everyone spent on this champ and some people had to grind to rank her and get a lucky crystal pull
I would also add that the SheHulk buff came along with Spider-Gwen’s buff, and both champions seemed to be tweaked specifically to be able to deal with some of the pervasive unstoppable effects in high end content.
Just a supporting data point: I was in the beta for both champs, and part of the beta included a survey for the beta participants in which one of the questions was explicitly (and I'm paraphrasing from memory here) "how likely would you be to use this champion's heavy attacks to counter unstoppable champions?" This was explicitly called out as a primary feature of the champion improvements.
@MasChingon If it happens to sh, I'm afraid he will be nerfed as well, so I won't take mine to r5. It's really strange to see with how much they both benefit from heavy and nodes like heavy aegis, where you can only use wasp reliably vs Mordo for example. Like aw node forcing you to bring the only one specific champ of what, 150 now? Loool
This raises a good point—namely, that much of this She-Hulk debacle is a result of game design that tends to require specific counters to a host of different nodes.
For those of us who don’t luck out and land one of the handful of champs who are great on nearly all nodes (Ghost, Corvus, Cap), we wind up ranking up subsets of champs to deal with specific fights/nodes.
This makes it even more important to be able to rely on the descriptions of mechanics and the mechanics themselves as accurate. If they aren’t, then you wind up burning precious resources (real and virtual) on a counter who is no longer a counter.
@DNA3000 Again, agreed. Only thing I would add is a give back on anyone who awakened their She-Hulk via gem since the update (along with corresponding stones).
Also appreciate your memory of the survey question. Yet another data point that supports relief.
Using the word "bug" to justify offering no compensation for character changes is getting out of hand. She was functioning the way she was designed. The fact that they didn't intend her to be able to do this doesn't make it not a nerf. They are altering her to prevent her from doing something she has always been able to do. She will lose an ability she has always had. She is being nerfed. I'm OK with them nerfing her, but taking no responsibility once again is garbage. People ought to have the option of ranking down a champ that gets a significant nerf. It was garbage with AA and it's garbage now.
Let's just make sure we call this what it is: NERF
And reason why I can definitively call it a NERF is 2 fold:
1. Landing a heavy at end of combo has ALWAYS been a mechanic in the game (for She-Hulk (original launch She-Hulk & post update She-Hulk) and other champions - not all of them but for a good handful of them depending on type & speed of heavy animation)
2. Benefit that is tied to landing a heavy attack with She-Hulk (applying Slow debuff & passive Fury)
Landing a heavy is different across champs. Some have quicker responses and some have longer reaches. Because She-Hulk's heavy applied such a great benefit and was easily applied at the end of a combo (only 100% when the opponent didn't have a bar of power and was pinned up against the wall), this made it very powerful. There are numerous champs in the game that have the same mechanic: ability to land a heavy at end of a combo against the wall. Now Kabam comes out and states (via Kabam Miike) that landing a heavy at the end of a combo is not intended... First time that has EVER been mentioned and now within a week's time they say they identified an issue and are fixing it but for ONE champ. None of the other champs that can do it are being addressed and I don't expect them to be because they don't get the benefit like She-Hulk does with her Heavy applying the Slow debuff & getting the passive fury (that applies the taunt) which allows them to be built up and sustained and get into a clear cycle of repetition (if the opponent isn't a Skill Champion).
I'm certain this has been on their radar for quite some time (shortly after the She-Hulk update) with all the videos flying around of summoners who actually know and play the game and are bright enough to come up with such game play strategies but yet Kabam didn't have the guts to bring it out earlier for discussion and they let us summoners use our precious materials to rank She-Hulk knowing they were going to possibly modify this mechanic which makes She-Hulk great. Will She-Hulk still be ok, yes. Will she be better than what she original was pre-update, yes. But how she is played and performs is significantly nerfed to keep that Slow and Furies up and applied. That's just horrible communication and wrong and why I feel this NERF falls under the rare categorization of awarding RDTs according to Miike's exact statement of awarding them "when a Character is adjusted to no longer perform the way they once did." I hope to see my character specific She-Hulk RDT soon.
So we need RDT for She Hulk and/or SS you can’t say it works one way and not the other Kabam...
I don't think SS deserves a rank down. Sure, the reasoning for that one issue is due to an apparent typo that was missed, but he was never shown to be able to do what was described anyway. So rewording to what he actually does isn't too bad if he never performed the description. I use SS a lot and it never bothered me much. That is just my opinion though. SH on the other hand deserves and RDT and normaly I avoid mentioning those
“he was never shown to be able to do what was described anyways”
If someone sells me a Mustang online and I get there and it’s a Ford Focus...not my fault they botched the spotlight and descriptions
Like I said, I get what you're saying which is why I made the comment about the apparent typo. They spotlighted that and the "typo" has always been there. I don't agree on that being the reason but the reason I don't see it being RDT needing is because from release or at least a month after (when I pulled him) I have never seen a 100% stagger from perfect blocks while in that stance. I use him a lot and haven't seen that being a huge detriment to using him effectively. Like I said, that is my opinion but I know that their decision on that really bugs you.
TL;DR, it's unfair that we (the community) can get screwed over by your (Kabam's) understandable short comings. (Read that rest for the details and where I'm coming from, Without assuming I'm someone who "just wants free stuff" and/or "is just jumping on the Rant Train"...)
I completely get everyone makes mistakes and these Interactions/Bugs can be missed, but in a game that's Ever Evolving with New Incorrect Interactions between Champions (example back when Drax was revealed to be able to bypass Mordu's Astral-Evade) and even Old Big Oversights (example She-Hulk's speedy Heavy Attack) there should be a way for people (the community) to Reverse their Choices when it's Fair and Not Their Fault. (Not saying those examples should or shouldn't deserve the option to Reverse your Previous Choice, they're just examples of Unintended Interactions and Mechanics.) No I am Not saying give every Player the "you know whats" with free reign on who they can use "it" on, I mean give people who invested into these specific cases the option to change Only That Decision when it's something that was caused by an error on your (Kabam's) part. If these Champions were set in stone upon released being Fully Tested with no problems whatsoever then it'd make sense for these Decisions to be Permanent with no turning back, but since this is a Constantly Growing and Changing Game (basically in a perpetual Beta compared to other games with a set system and no new editions) that's not the case and I just don't see it as Fair that we (the community) can be stuck with these irreversible choices that couldn't possibly take into account these constant changes that may completely alter certain Mechanics at any point in time because of oversights on the Creators end (again it's completely understand and everyone makes mistakes).
Please don't instantly silence me or mindlessly rant at me for expressing my opinion and for implying the "Item That Shall Not Be Named", I'm talking to the Admins And Players here, I would just like you to thoroughly read my thoughts/opinions that I'm Fairly Expressing and think about it from several points of view. (From the view points of the Players that know the ins and outs of the game, the Audiences that play other games and that are looking into this game with blind eyes, the Admins/Bug Fixers that watch over these cases and work together to come to these decisions that can make or break certain previous choices, the Creators who made these Mechanics and missed something big or small due to understandable simple human error, from a Financial standpoint where while "this item" that is a fix for these unforeseen changes/fixes may be free to implement that they can trickle down into profits when things like purchasing Champion Crystals and more so Rank Up Materials that go up for sale that you may no longer need to buy because of the returned Materials for the previous Fair Error that any Creator should own up to, and people like me who are just trying to think how these things can be handled Fairly for everyone and just want to Suggest something that can make Everyone Happy without "offending" Anyone.)
Thank you reading, I know it's a Big Post with a Lot of side explanations/conversations but I try to be thorough and make sure no one gets confused by any part of the Post.
This makes it even more important to be able to rely on the descriptions of mechanics and the mechanics themselves as accurate. If they aren’t, then you wind up burning precious resources (real and virtual) on a counter who is no longer a counter.
This is a bit off-topic, but I believe this underscores a root problem with the developers that they envision a game based on both discovery (which requires things to be hidden) and counterplay (which requires things to be visible and described). That's why you have crazy situations like the devs trying to encourage bringing specific counters into alliance war, and then hiding all the nodes. That's a committee failing to agree on a design and trying to do both and getting neither.
Intricate counterplay requires the game be extremely transparent and well documented, and for the developers to tell the players what the rules are and then follow them, right off the edge of a cliff if necessary, to maintain design fidelity. I don't think this is compatible with the way the devs currently withhold complete descriptions of game mechanics and design rules.
WOW OKAY. I’m always very hesitant to call out nerf, but I’m sorry, this is a nerf. Do you really expect us to believe that during the month-long beta test (the one where focus was 100% geared towards her and Spider-Gwen) you didn’t notice this? You didn’t notice how effectively people were using She Hulk, and incorporating her heavy into her aggressive play style? This is a new Low Kabam. You may have some great events set up and have made many great changes to the game this year, but this is garbage. This is a terrible decision and I strongly urge you to reconsider this. And if this ridiculous “fix” goes into play, I have no problem being that person who chants RDT! I used a 5* science gem on her, as well as sig stones, then also used T2A to rank 4 her. I was going to R5 her but it seems I might have a reason not to. Don’t let this go through, Kabam. It’s genuinely unfair.
Can always rely on iLac for these videos Mad power to him Just need clarification when he says heavy attacks crear a taunt mechanic, does it work like that with the heavy attacks themselves? I understand how the AI reacts by itself when we leave ourselves open and they have power Or Was he referring to the fury effects?
Yeah sorry man someone pointed that out and i dont play her everyday so slipped up there.
No worries he follows any topic that has my name in it. On the forums, reddit, line chats & discord. Hates all day cause I insulted his BG fandom one day. He'll get over it one day. Or not.
The thing I don't agree with the most in that video - stating that people knew it was cheese, this information at the top end of the game gets spread around all the big line groups with the top players (which has been confirmed a few times that these groups exist), then complaining and wanting rank down tickets for something you knew was cheese. IF it was intended for She-Hulk to be able to chain her heavy that way from a combo, much like Wasp can and is a part of her ACTUAL kit, then yes I'd understand the outrage. But from my understanding SH was not meant to have the ability to chain her heavy in that way, it was unintended. The reason it takes a while for this to become an issue for Kabam is they have to observe how many people are abusing a mechanic, if it's a small group of people and its relatively unknown, then they'll take their time with it, but if they see a big increase in that issue then they'll slam the hammer down hard and fast. Honestly this is another case of "The people who knew about this, should have kept it to themselves".
The thing I don't agree with the most in that video - stating that people knew it was cheese, this information at the top end of the game gets spread around all the big line groups with the top players (which has been confirmed a few times that these groups exist), then complaining and wanting rank down tickets for something you knew was cheese. IF it was intended for She-Hulk to be able to chain her heavy that way from a combo, much like Wasp can and is a part of her ACTUAL kit, then yes I'd understand the outrage. But from my understanding SH was not meant to have the ability to chain her heavy in that way, it was unintended. The reason it takes a while for this to become an issue for Kabam is they have to observe how many people are abusing a mechanic, if it's a small group of people and its relatively unknown, then they'll take their time with it, but if they see a big increase in that issue then they'll slam the hammer down hard and fast. Honestly this is another case of "The people who knew about this, should have kept it to themselves".
It was posted on youtube as "She-Hulk Cheese" by one of the top players in the game. Who is in all those groups. Thousands of people seen it and it was even a copy of a video already made the month before. If you used her at end game and didnt feel you were cheesing the contest....i call BS on that.
We’re sorry that this update came as a surprise. The Ability to chain into a Heavy Attack from a combo is not one that is intended for any Champion, and we have never advertised it as one (except for Wasp, who has a built in short Passive stun to ensure that she is able to do it). No Champion should be able to Combo into a Heavy attack with 100% reliability, unless explicitly stated in their Ability description.
This was not something that was listed as an ability or an exception for She-Hulk. She was not built, tuned, or tested, around this unintended interaction. This was identified as an issue and resolved.
We apologize for the confusion caused by this interaction.
OML also combos his hits into heavy with 100% reliability. This is a bug that needs to be fixed i
You know they will wait till people invest in rank up materials and people post videos of his great uses, then they will nerf him. Oh sorry, I mean fix him.
This makes it even more important to be able to rely on the descriptions of mechanics and the mechanics themselves as accurate. If they aren’t, then you wind up burning precious resources (real and virtual) on a counter who is no longer a counter.
This is a bit off-topic, but I believe this underscores a root problem with the developers that they envision a game based on both discovery (which requires things to be hidden) and counterplay (which requires things to be visible and described). That's why you have crazy situations like the devs trying to encourage bringing specific counters into alliance war, and then hiding all the nodes. That's a committee failing to agree on a design and trying to do both and getting neither.
Intricate counterplay requires the game be extremely transparent and well documented, and for the developers to tell the players what the rules are and then follow them, right off the edge of a cliff if necessary, to maintain design fidelity. I don't think this is compatible with the way the devs currently withhold complete descriptions of game mechanics and design rules.
Again, having our own little dialogue here, but yes—absolutely.
Reading many comments here and learned that OML can do this exact thing. I never knew. I took mine into ROL and landed a heavy at the end of my combo with a 100% rate just like She Hulk just to confirm. How messed up that sleezy company buffs a champ, then nerfs her most important mechanic after months of use. Then the next champ in line for a buff can do the exact same thing. Are you effing kidding me!?!? So after we all rank up OML you'll nerf him too. Are you going to look into this too? Because it's a fact. OML can do the exact same thing!!
And the comment that all characters move at the same cadence is just moronic. Just stop it right there, log in and actually play the game.
And yes, RDT to everyone who ranked her up. Anything less is such a slap in the face. Sleezy sleezy sleezy
Comments
I'd have no problem with offering them to anyone with a ranked She Hulk, but to me the critical problem is the way heavy combos are leveraged by the buffs. Prior to the buffs, it was mostly a curiosity and not a critical reason to rank up She Hulk. But I wouldn't quibble here.
I should also point out that for me this isn't just an issue with the 6.2 Champion. If this was just one fight, one fight out of the entire game doesn't justify rank down tickets in my opinion. This is something that affects the champion generally, which means this should be offered to anyone with She Hulk of any rank. If a player ranked up a 3* She Hulk because of this capability, their rank up decisions are just as valid as someone ranking up a 5* She Hulk to rank 5. We're not compensating for a nerf: nerfs happen. We're compensating for the players being presented with an unfair decision, and that unfair decision affects all players of every level of progress whether they were ranking a 6* or a 2*.
For those of us who don’t luck out and land one of the handful of champs who are great on nearly all nodes (Ghost, Corvus, Cap), we wind up ranking up subsets of champs to deal with specific fights/nodes.
This makes it even more important to be able to rely on the descriptions of mechanics and the mechanics themselves as accurate. If they aren’t, then you wind up burning precious resources (real and virtual) on a counter who is no longer a counter.
Dr. Zola
Also appreciate your memory of the survey question. Yet another data point that supports relief.
Dr. Zola
And reason why I can definitively call it a NERF is 2 fold:
Landing a heavy is different across champs. Some have quicker responses and some have longer reaches. Because She-Hulk's heavy applied such a great benefit and was easily applied at the end of a combo (only 100% when the opponent didn't have a bar of power and was pinned up against the wall), this made it very powerful. There are numerous champs in the game that have the same mechanic: ability to land a heavy at end of a combo against the wall. Now Kabam comes out and states (via Kabam Miike) that landing a heavy at the end of a combo is not intended... First time that has EVER been mentioned and now within a week's time they say they identified an issue and are fixing it but for ONE champ.
None of the other champs that can do it are being addressed and I don't expect them to be because they don't get the benefit like She-Hulk does with her Heavy applying the Slow debuff & getting the passive fury (that applies the taunt) which allows them to be built up and sustained and get into a clear cycle of repetition (if the opponent isn't a Skill Champion).
I'm certain this has been on their radar for quite some time (shortly after the She-Hulk update) with all the videos flying around of summoners who actually know and play the game and are bright enough to come up with such game play strategies but yet Kabam didn't have the guts to bring it out earlier for discussion and they let us summoners use our precious materials to rank She-Hulk knowing they were going to possibly modify this mechanic which makes She-Hulk great. Will She-Hulk still be ok, yes. Will she be better than what she original was pre-update, yes. But how she is played and performs is significantly nerfed to keep that Slow and Furies up and applied. That's just horrible communication and wrong and why I feel this NERF falls under the rare categorization of awarding RDTs according to Miike's exact statement of awarding them "when a Character is adjusted to no longer perform the way they once did." I hope to see my character specific She-Hulk RDT soon.
I completely get everyone makes mistakes and these Interactions/Bugs can be missed, but in a game that's Ever Evolving with New Incorrect Interactions between Champions (example back when Drax was revealed to be able to bypass Mordu's Astral-Evade) and even Old Big Oversights (example She-Hulk's speedy Heavy Attack) there should be a way for people (the community) to Reverse their Choices when it's Fair and Not Their Fault. (Not saying those examples should or shouldn't deserve the option to Reverse your Previous Choice, they're just examples of Unintended Interactions and Mechanics.)
No I am Not saying give every Player the "you know whats" with free reign on who they can use "it" on, I mean give people who invested into these specific cases the option to change Only That Decision when it's something that was caused by an error on your (Kabam's) part. If these Champions were set in stone upon released being Fully Tested with no problems whatsoever then it'd make sense for these Decisions to be Permanent with no turning back, but since this is a Constantly Growing and Changing Game (basically in a perpetual Beta compared to other games with a set system and no new editions) that's not the case and I just don't see it as Fair that we (the community) can be stuck with these irreversible choices that couldn't possibly take into account these constant changes that may completely alter certain Mechanics at any point in time because of oversights on the Creators end (again it's completely understand and everyone makes mistakes).
Please don't instantly silence me or mindlessly rant at me for expressing my opinion and for implying the "Item That Shall Not Be Named", I'm talking to the Admins And Players here, I would just like you to thoroughly read my thoughts/opinions that I'm Fairly Expressing and think about it from several points of view. (From the view points of the Players that know the ins and outs of the game, the Audiences that play other games and that are looking into this game with blind eyes, the Admins/Bug Fixers that watch over these cases and work together to come to these decisions that can make or break certain previous choices, the Creators who made these Mechanics and missed something big or small due to understandable simple human error, from a Financial standpoint where while "this item" that is a fix for these unforeseen changes/fixes may be free to implement that they can trickle down into profits when things like purchasing Champion Crystals and more so Rank Up Materials that go up for sale that you may no longer need to buy because of the returned Materials for the previous Fair Error that any Creator should own up to, and people like me who are just trying to think how these things can be handled Fairly for everyone and just want to Suggest something that can make Everyone Happy without "offending" Anyone.)
Thank you reading, I know it's a Big Post with a Lot of side explanations/conversations but I try to be thorough and make sure no one gets confused by any part of the Post.
Intricate counterplay requires the game be extremely transparent and well documented, and for the developers to tell the players what the rules are and then follow them, right off the edge of a cliff if necessary, to maintain design fidelity. I don't think this is compatible with the way the devs currently withhold complete descriptions of game mechanics and design rules.
I’m always very hesitant to call out nerf, but I’m sorry, this is a nerf. Do you really expect us to believe that during the month-long beta test (the one where focus was 100% geared towards her and Spider-Gwen) you didn’t notice this? You didn’t notice how effectively people were using She Hulk, and incorporating her heavy into her aggressive play style? This is a new Low Kabam. You may have some great events set up and have made many great changes to the game this year, but this is garbage. This is a terrible decision and I strongly urge you to reconsider this. And if this ridiculous “fix” goes into play, I have no problem being that person who chants RDT! I used a 5* science gem on her, as well as sig stones, then also used T2A to rank 4 her. I was going to R5 her but it seems I might have a reason not to. Don’t let this go through, Kabam. It’s genuinely unfair.
As usual. No one cares what you think lol
No worries he follows any topic that has my name in it. On the forums, reddit, line chats & discord. Hates all day cause I insulted his BG fandom one day. He'll get over it one day. Or not.
I didnt ask for my video to be posted here so i really appreciate it though and the kind words.
Dr. Zola
And the comment that all characters move at the same cadence is just moronic. Just stop it right there, log in and actually play the game.
And yes, RDT to everyone who ranked her up. Anything less is such a slap in the face. Sleezy sleezy sleezy