She-Hulk Heavy Speed Bug Fix [Title Edited for Clarity]

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Comments

  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 2,854 ★★★★

    You realize that video shows 100% success right? The failure point was CoWs points in stand your ground that enabled the block, absent SYG it was 100%.
  • Nick_Caine_32Nick_Caine_32 Posts: 449 ★★★


    Points were made
  • jnikolas92jnikolas92 Posts: 125 ★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DrZola said:

    Fjolnir said:

    For those interested, here is Kabam Michael saying they don't have any plans to issue RDT. Pretty awful for those who have used valuable resources.

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/156293/kabam-mike-be-the-man-of-your-words#latest

    So....”Stated Abilities.”

    Precisely what does that mean @Kabam Porthos ?
    I think two different things are being conflated here. First of all, if a champion is capable of doing something in the game that they aren't explicitly stated to be able to do, it is entirely reasonable to assume that it may or may not be intentional. The more dramatic the ability, the more likely it could be unintended. She-Hulk was not stated to have the ability to chain into heavies, so it is possible that this was unintended when relying on the champion announcement. That's a fair statement.

    However, that is not the *only* source of information that players have, and that source of information is *never* complete. No champion can do a twelve attack combo. How do we know that? Experience. No champion spotlight or champion info sheet says "only does five attack combos." As far as I know, the game doesn't tell people this explicitly (maybe the tutorial does, I don't remember and I doubt anyone else does either). Regardless, much of the fundamental mechanics in the game have to be learned, not read.

    So on the day the spotlight was released it would have been entirely fair to say that She Hulk being able to combo into heavy was unintended and was going to be changed, because that ability wasn't explicitly stated. But the question is can Kabam continue to use the spotlight to state that if it isn't in there, it is subject to change without warning? In my opinion the answer is no, because during the intervening time the players have had an opportunity to judge the appropriateness of the behavior within the general context of the game. And Kabam has given players many opportunities to be misled.

    Kabam mentions Wasp. I went back and read Wasp's spotlight. Here's the relevant passage:


    Heavy Attack

    • When Wasp charges a Heavy Attack while hitting with a Basic Attack Combo, the opponent loses sight of her and passively gets Stunned for 0.6 seconds.

    • Inflicts Weakness for 10 seconds if this attack was chained from a Basic Attack Combo, reducing the opponent’s Attack Rating by 30%.



    ** Developer Note: Use Wasp’s Heavy Attack as a combo ender! :)

    Should I infer from this passage that Wasp ending a combo with a heavy is unique? Because I don't. The passage says that if during a combo the player decides to charge a heavy the target is passively stunned for 0.6 seconds, which means the target cannot counter the heavy. This means it is "safe" to use the heavy in this situation. But it doesn't highlight the fact that this is supposed to be a unique ability. All it says in the dev note is to recommend using heavies as a combo ender.

    If this was supposed to be an extremely rare ability, why wasn't this fact highlighted? A reasonable player wouldn't necessarily infer this was a unique ability, only that it was a useful one. In fact, I believe a reasonable player would assume that any unique ability of a champion would be explicitly highlighted as a unique advantage, because you would assume the game would go out of its way to always highlight unique advantages.

    In hindsight I should have been more suspicious of this passage. My game design hat says there's some mechanical voodoo going on here, but even if I was suspicious, there's no open dialog with the developers to resolve it. I can't, for example, open a thread and ask the devs to discuss the problem directly: it is rare that the developers do, and I'm not convinced they would have for an esoteric discussion like this one.

    To put it more simply, the fact that She Hulk's combo mechanics aren't explicitly stated in the spotlight does mean players cannot assume it was intentional at the time She Hulk was changed. But conversely, in my opinion Kabam cannot say players should not have assumed the behavior was intentional long past the point when players would be relying on game experience and not the spotlight to determine if anything was reasonably intentional.
    love the way you broke it done. well put.

    at the end of the day, if there's no blame to put on anyone it doesn't change the fact when the change goes live, players who ranked up She Hulk have a champion that does not function as she did before.
    Since there was no way for them to confirm that she wasn't working as intended, it makes sense to compensate so we can move forward!!
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 859 ★★★
    edited August 28
    DNA3000 said:

    DrZola said:

    Fjolnir said:

    For those interested, here is Kabam Michael saying they don't have any plans to issue RDT. Pretty awful for those who have used valuable resources.

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/156293/kabam-mike-be-the-man-of-your-words#latest

    So....”Stated Abilities.”

    Precisely what does that mean @Kabam Porthos ?
    I think two different things are being conflated here. First of all, if a champion is capable of doing something in the game that they aren't explicitly stated to be able to do, it is entirely reasonable to assume that it may or may not be intentional. The more dramatic the ability, the more likely it could be unintended. She-Hulk was not stated to have the ability to chain into heavies, so it is possible that this was unintended when relying on the champion announcement. That's a fair statement.

    However, that is not the *only* source of information that players have, and that source of information is *never* complete. No champion can do a twelve attack combo. How do we know that? Experience. No champion spotlight or champion info sheet says "only does five attack combos." As far as I know, the game doesn't tell people this explicitly (maybe the tutorial does, I don't remember and I doubt anyone else does either). Regardless, much of the fundamental mechanics in the game have to be learned, not read.

    So on the day the spotlight was released it would have been entirely fair to say that She Hulk being able to combo into heavy was unintended and was going to be changed, because that ability wasn't explicitly stated. But the question is can Kabam continue to use the spotlight to state that if it isn't in there, it is subject to change without warning? In my opinion the answer is no, because during the intervening time the players have had an opportunity to judge the appropriateness of the behavior within the general context of the game. And Kabam has given players many opportunities to be misled.

    Kabam mentions Wasp. I went back and read Wasp's spotlight. Here's the relevant passage:


    Heavy Attack

    • When Wasp charges a Heavy Attack while hitting with a Basic Attack Combo, the opponent loses sight of her and passively gets Stunned for 0.6 seconds.

    • Inflicts Weakness for 10 seconds if this attack was chained from a Basic Attack Combo, reducing the opponent’s Attack Rating by 30%.



    ** Developer Note: Use Wasp’s Heavy Attack as a combo ender! :)

    Should I infer from this passage that Wasp ending a combo with a heavy is unique? Because I don't. The passage says that if during a combo the player decides to charge a heavy the target is passively stunned for 0.6 seconds, which means the target cannot counter the heavy. This means it is "safe" to use the heavy in this situation. But it doesn't highlight the fact that this is supposed to be a unique ability. All it says in the dev note is to recommend using heavies as a combo ender.

    If this was supposed to be an extremely rare ability, why wasn't this fact highlighted? A reasonable player wouldn't necessarily infer this was a unique ability, only that it was a useful one. In fact, I believe a reasonable player would assume that any unique ability of a champion would be explicitly highlighted as a unique advantage, because you would assume the game would go out of its way to always highlight unique advantages.

    In hindsight I should have been more suspicious of this passage. My game design hat says there's some mechanical voodoo going on here, but even if I was suspicious, there's no open dialog with the developers to resolve it. I can't, for example, open a thread and ask the devs to discuss the problem directly: it is rare that the developers do, and I'm not convinced they would have for an esoteric discussion like this one.

    To put it more simply, the fact that She Hulk's combo mechanics aren't explicitly stated in the spotlight does mean players cannot assume it was intentional at the time She Hulk was changed. But conversely, in my opinion Kabam cannot say players should not have assumed the behavior was intentional long past the point when players would be relying on game experience and not the spotlight to determine if anything was reasonably intentional.
    The wasp text is awkward. It would be better to state something like "Wasp can charge a heavy attack while hitting with a basic combo and causes a 0.6 second passive stun while shrinking to avoid retaliation (or" avoid getting swatted!" or whatever bit of fun flair).

    Gives a little more inferential information that way. It implies that without the stun she's likely to get hit, not everyone can do it, it will work against debuff immune champs, and opens the door to perhaps other champs can combo into a heavy using their fully intended unique abilities to overcome the inherent danger.


    They could have written this off whole She-hulk business by acknowledging in the text that her heavy is fast and keeping it moving. Some champs will have an advantage in some fights. That Champion fight was She-hulk's perfect storm fight. Replace Champion with a skill champ and she doesn't look nearly as overpowered and in need of correction.

    Besides, one of her very few comic claims to fame is beating up The Champion. I thought her obvious advantages in that fight were fully intentional.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,897 Guardian
    DrZola said:

    Actually, you can’t rely on that Dev Note at all—that is only chatter and editorializing per Kabam Miike, and therefore not included in her “Stated Abilities.” :D

    In this context, I'm not relying on the Dev Note for its factual content, but explicitly for its editorializing: I would assume that if a Dev wanted to editorialize something about a champion's ability, very high on the list would be "this is a unique ability no other champion currently has and would be super useful because no one else can do this."

    In other words, when a designer puts a note in the spotlight that says "end your combos with a heavy" he's not saying that if you do that you'll get the best possible performance out of the champion and if you don't that means the champ is bugged. He's just stating his opinion, not a fact about the champ. But if he doesn't say "Wasp is the only champ that can do this" it calls into question whether that was an explicit selling point, since that would seem to be missing the plot.

    It also falls into the category of "did the devs really genuinely believe this was a very important design rule, if they didn't jump up and down and point at the one time they broke it deliberately?"
  • gabmucs_MYgabmucs_MY Posts: 143
    Dear employee of this forum, please bear in your mind that Shehulk ability to chain a heavy after a 4 hit combo is not a problem. NOT A BUG NO IT IS NOT . ITS HER ANIMATION AND THE SPEED OF THE HEAVY ATTACK.
    I REPEAT, SPEED.
    SHE IS THE ONLY 1 who has the fastest heavy to land on the opponent in the game and you guys wanna fix this ? LOL

    Another point i wanna clarify about The Hood medium to medium chain. He is not BUGGED. ITS HIS ANIMATION STYLE THAT ALLOWS HIM TO CHAIN 2nd MEDIUM to 1st MEDIUM ASAP.
    Wanna fix this issue? Why dont you developers FIXED EVERY CHAMPION IN THE GAME AND GIVE AN APOLOGY TO EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US.
    LoL
  • KerneasKerneas Posts: 501 ★★
    @DNA3000 If the experience says something, it isn't always without exceptions. New mechanics are being introduced and the game changes.
  • TheTalentsTheTalents Posts: 537 ★★★
    Seems like a bunch of people got banned due to their frustrations

    Lormif said:

    Ascoop24 said:

    If this was a fix for a bug why was it never posted or discussed in the known issues thread or anywhere in bugs page. Totally agree with everyone that says this is coming out of nowhere and think it is for sure a nerf to she-hulk.

    you mean like here:
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/156095/she-hulks-heavy#latest


    There have actually been lots of it in bugs.
    Oh look a post from earlier today about a champ that’s been able to do the particular thing for 3 years. If anything one would assume that it’s a bug that she CAN’T chain heavies anymore because you’ve been able to do it for so long and we’ve had no mention of it being a bug
    The changelog LITERALLY said:
    She Hulk: Fixed an issue where she could combo into an heavy attack. It was a bug fix, and this is not an opinion, but a fact.
    How dumb are you? Are people really this stupid?
    Don't spend too much time over thinking. They're literally trolling for attention.

    That being said I don't think there's much more to add to this discussion other than future consequences for no rankdown tickets. The issue is that She-Hulk isn't strong enough for that type of action. Let them try this with our beloved Corvus/Ghost and I guarantee this will not go over so smoothly. We been getting pushed around with all types of bugs and errors with little to no compensation. You can only push so far though. Kabam don't take fandom for the game for granted. Most players aren't going to go on forums and warn you when people are done they just leave.

    My opinion is to just give the She-Hulk rankdown ticket for use and it will quell the madness and at least allows players to move and accept the Nerf that is being referred to as bug.
  • RogerRabsRogerRabs Posts: 295 ★★★
    The way they handled the She-Hulk and SymSupreme changes makes me very worried for their plans to consistently tweak champions after release.

    If they're going to do that they need to sure up their processes and be transparent from the moment the character is introduced.
  • May_The_WayMay_The_Way Posts: 561 ★★★

    The amount of now banned accounts in this discussion are hilarious. Kabam obviously doesn’t like It when we share our disagreements with them. LOL

    I got a warning and deleted messages.
    Same. But it’s expected from Kabam.
  • HeavyBr3athingHeavyBr3athing Posts: 93
    Warnings and all that aside.

    All we want, which has been asked previously, is a response to the questions we have asked.
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 2,815 ★★★★★
    @DNA3000

    I’m in agreement. Further hair-splitting can be done by PM.

    Shift to another item: what are your thoughts on Miike’s statement that “all champs have the same speed and cadence to their attacks”?

    Dr. Zola
  • Dtl7714Dtl7714 Posts: 425 ★★★
    DrZola said:

    @DNA3000

    I’m in agreement. Further hair-splitting can be done by PM.

    Shift to another item: what are your thoughts on Miike’s statement that “all champs have the same speed and cadence to their attacks”?

    Dr. Zola

    I can't believe people haven't jumped on that statement more. It is absolute garbage and not true. Many champs have different styles, tempos, timing, number of hits in combos, etc. I dont know who he thought he was kidding with that.
This discussion has been closed.