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Devil of Hell's Kitchen Overhaul: Thoughts?

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Comments

  • CyborgNinja135CyborgNinja135 Posts: 417 ★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Chobbly said:

    Unio77 said:

    Reading these comments and I see the passion everyone has to DD.
    Makes the crime act of his buff that much more criminal

    I can see that for DDHK's buff Kabam were trying out something new. They got it right with Kingpin but significantly less so with DDHK. Kingpin is far easier to use, has arguably more widely relevant utility, more consistent damage and has a built in way to deal with damaging Debuffs.

    There are areas of his kit which could benefit from attention, but trying to gain support stands a better chance if we focus on one aspect of the kit, the worst one. The most damning of those problem areas is the Base Regeneration Rate.

    I would like it fully restoring if possible. A small change would make a barely perceptible difference to the numbers. A strong restoration would give him a unique place in the midfield of Skill champs as a tough and resilient option for content other than those limited times which require a Miss Counter or combo control.

    I have to disagree with you there @Chobbly , I don’t think there is a ‘worst part’ to his kit.

    While the Regeneration is something new that they tried, and was poorly executed, and limits him from being useable in so many areas in the contest, in my opinion it’s still not part of the ‘core’ of his kit.

    You can liken his core kit to an engine. Kabam have replaced the engine, but the main part of the kit (let’s call it a catalytic converter) is not efficient. It makes the entire engine inefficient.

    In my opinion, while the regeneration hampers him greatly, once it’s fixed, the core issue in his kit is still not fixed. And that’s the following:

    Not enough uptime on the things that he does do well. His Cruelty and Precision need to be paused “ increased for him to hit his potential.

    This is crucial to his kit, as is the regeneration. Both are equally important, and one can not be given in place of the other.
    I completely agree. The regen is just the cherry on top. It sucks for those who run suicides since DDHK will only last 2-3 fights they play flawlessly. If they fixed the regen, the damage would still kinda suck. I wouldn't mind if the sp2 bleeds had a chance to be critical. Or maybe the RW insta bleeds could also have a chance to be critical. But what needs to be addressed first imo is a way to elongate the debuff duration or refresh them.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★

    Rookiie said:

    Chobbly said:

    Unio77 said:

    Reading these comments and I see the passion everyone has to DD.
    Makes the crime act of his buff that much more criminal

    I can see that for DDHK's buff Kabam were trying out something new. They got it right with Kingpin but significantly less so with DDHK. Kingpin is far easier to use, has arguably more widely relevant utility, more consistent damage and has a built in way to deal with damaging Debuffs.

    There are areas of his kit which could benefit from attention, but trying to gain support stands a better chance if we focus on one aspect of the kit, the worst one. The most damning of those problem areas is the Base Regeneration Rate.

    I would like it fully restoring if possible. A small change would make a barely perceptible difference to the numbers. A strong restoration would give him a unique place in the midfield of Skill champs as a tough and resilient option for content other than those limited times which require a Miss Counter or combo control.

    I have to disagree with you there @Chobbly , I don’t think there is a ‘worst part’ to his kit.

    While the Regeneration is something new that they tried, and was poorly executed, and limits him from being useable in so many areas in the contest, in my opinion it’s still not part of the ‘core’ of his kit.

    You can liken his core kit to an engine. Kabam have replaced the engine, but the main part of the kit (let’s call it a catalytic converter) is not efficient. It makes the entire engine inefficient.

    In my opinion, while the regeneration hampers him greatly, once it’s fixed, the core issue in his kit is still not fixed. And that’s the following:

    Not enough uptime on the things that he does do well. His Cruelty and Precision need to be paused “ increased for him to hit his potential.

    This is crucial to his kit, as is the regeneration. Both are equally important, and one can not be given in place of the other.
    I completely agree. The regen is just the cherry on top. It sucks for those who run suicides since DDHK will only last 2-3 fights they play flawlessly. If they fixed the regen, the damage would still kinda suck. I wouldn't mind if the sp2 bleeds had a chance to be critical. Or maybe the RW insta bleeds could also have a chance to be critical. But what needs to be addressed first imo is a way to elongate the debuff duration or refresh them.
    I believe that if they fixed the regen (and by fix i mean restore it to 100%) that he would be viable and sustainable because you would restore some health (and that’s with skillful game play).

    You take one combo now and it’s over. Regardless of his damage potential or not.

    How many champs are completely debilitated after eating 1 combo? Not even Wasp and champs with low health pools or poor armor and block proficiency.

    The guy is a brawler. He needs that regen rate back to 100%. Take the regen rate modification off if you want to - that makes no difference when he’s losing 30% health per fight from 1 debuff.
  • ChobblyChobbly Posts: 417 ★★★
    edited December 2021
    Don't get me wrong, I think DDHK would benefit from something to help his buffs last longer. I like the idea of Well Timed Blocks pausing his personal Precision and Fury Buffs for two or three seconds.

    But I think that would probably require a coding change. Changing the Regen Rate has already been shown to be something which can be done quickly and I'm trying to keep that in mind with what is realistic to expect from Kabam.

    You won't win fights quicker with DDHK with a fixed Regen. He won't ever be the top damage dealer in his class. But DDHK will stay in the fight, too stubborn to give up or quit, and with skillful play will beat the opponent down. And that sounds exactly like the Netflix version of the character that DDHK represents.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,887 ★★★★★
    edited December 2021
    Chobbly said:

    Don't get me wrong, I think DDHK would benefit from something to help his buffs last longer. I like the idea of Well Timed Blocks pausing his personal Precision and Fury Buffs for two or three seconds.

    But I think that would probably require a coding change. Changing the Regen Rate has already been shown to be something which can be done quickly and I'm trying to keep that in mind with what is realistic to expect from Kabam.

    You won't win fights quicker with DDHK with a fixed Regen. He won't ever be the top damage dealer in his class. But DDHK will stay in the fight, too stubborn to give up or quit, and with skillful play will beat the opponent down. And that sounds exactly like the Netflix version of the character that DDHK represents.

    I don’t think Well Timed Blocks should pause personal Precision and Cruelty buffs, just saying pausing them while striking the opponent might be a nice way to upkeep the duration.

    The simplest change for Kabam is to increase the duration of the Cruelty and Precision buffs. It’s as simple a fix as fixing the regen.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,887 ★★★★★
    @Kabam Miike do we have any data please on DDHK’s performance since his buff?
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Did you guys know he bypasses falter?

    He’s got some stuff but the juice isn’t worth the squeeze because of what we’re discussing
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,887 ★★★★★

    Did you guys know he bypasses falter?

    He’s got some stuff but the juice isn’t worth the squeeze because of what we’re discussing

    I just don’t understand why we’re being ignored.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Did you guys know he bypasses falter?

    He’s got some stuff but the juice isn’t worth the squeeze because of what we’re discussing

    I just don’t understand why we’re being ignored.
    I’m sure they have important things to deal with. It’s up to us to remind them.
  • ChobblyChobbly Posts: 417 ★★★

    Rookiie said:

    Did you guys know he bypasses falter?

    He’s got some stuff but the juice isn’t worth the squeeze because of what we’re discussing

    I just don’t understand why we’re being ignored.
    I’m sure they have important things to deal with. It’s up to us to remind them.
    Who knows - it's easy to speculate. The forums haven't been the most positive place of late (for reasons). It could be that they actually don't want to do anything with DDHK anymore and don't want to respond out of inflaming the situation. It could be anything.

    Regardless, it would be good to get a response. This has been one of the more positive and constructive buff related threads of late and it would be good for that reason if someone from Kabam could/would be ae to engage.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Chobbly said:

    Rookiie said:

    Did you guys know he bypasses falter?

    He’s got some stuff but the juice isn’t worth the squeeze because of what we’re discussing

    I just don’t understand why we’re being ignored.
    I’m sure they have important things to deal with. It’s up to us to remind them.
    Who knows - it's easy to speculate. The forums haven't been the most positive place of late (for reasons). It could be that they actually don't want to do anything with DDHK anymore and don't want to respond out of inflaming the situation. It could be anything.

    Regardless, it would be good to get a response. This has been one of the more positive and constructive buff related threads of late and it would be good for that reason if someone from Kabam could/would be ae to engage.
    You’re right! We’re very reasonable and present the underlying problems with the potential solutions.

    We just need a response!
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,887 ★★★★★

    Chobbly said:

    Rookiie said:

    Did you guys know he bypasses falter?

    He’s got some stuff but the juice isn’t worth the squeeze because of what we’re discussing

    I just don’t understand why we’re being ignored.
    I’m sure they have important things to deal with. It’s up to us to remind them.
    Who knows - it's easy to speculate. The forums haven't been the most positive place of late (for reasons). It could be that they actually don't want to do anything with DDHK anymore and don't want to respond out of inflaming the situation. It could be anything.

    Regardless, it would be good to get a response. This has been one of the more positive and constructive buff related threads of late and it would be good for that reason if someone from Kabam could/would be ae to engage.
    You’re right! We’re very reasonable and present the underlying problems with the potential solutions.

    We just need a response!

    And pronto. I want to use this guy in 6.3 explo.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,887 ★★★★★
    His Strength in Martyrs synergy increases the Cruelty duration at the cost of 5 Combo Meter. That essentially cancels itself out. Kabam why do you do these things?
    However I play him, the more it’s obvious that the regen was a big mistake and that the duration of his buffs and non-damaging debuffs don’t have enough uptime. As a 6-star Rank 3, the best I’ve managed against ROL WS was 107 hits. On average I manage about 115 hits. That’s a lot honestly. At his Rank he should take WS in the 75-90 range at most.
  • Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 2,501 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Chobbly said:

    Unio77 said:

    Reading these comments and I see the passion everyone has to DD.
    Makes the crime act of his buff that much more criminal

    I can see that for DDHK's buff Kabam were trying out something new. They got it right with Kingpin but significantly less so with DDHK. Kingpin is far easier to use, has arguably more widely relevant utility, more consistent damage and has a built in way to deal with damaging Debuffs.

    There are areas of his kit which could benefit from attention, but trying to gain support stands a better chance if we focus on one aspect of the kit, the worst one. The most damning of those problem areas is the Base Regeneration Rate.

    I would like it fully restoring if possible. A small change would make a barely perceptible difference to the numbers. A strong restoration would give him a unique place in the midfield of Skill champs as a tough and resilient option for content other than those limited times which require a Miss Counter or combo control.

    Good point, but I also have to disagree with you there @Chobbly , I don’t think there is a ‘worst part’ to his kit.

    While the Regeneration is something new that they tried, and was poorly executed, and limits him from being useable in so many areas in the contest, in my opinion it’s still not part of the ‘core’ of his kit.

    You can liken his core kit to an engine. Kabam have replaced the engine, but the main part of the kit (let’s call it a catalytic converter) is not efficient. It makes the entire engine inefficient.

    In my opinion, while the regeneration hampers him greatly in the contest, once it’s fixed, the core issue in his kit is still not fixed. And that’s the following:

    Not enough uptime on the things that he does do well. His Cruelty and Precision duration need to be paused on striking the opponent or increased for him to hit his potential.

    This is crucial to his kit, as is the regeneration. Both are equally important, and one can not be given in place of the other.
    DDHK is really great at outputting damage , especially if you know how to get combo meter awareness down. I love DDHK and will post my thoughts tomorrow.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,887 ★★★★★
    Texas_11 said:

    Rookiie said:

    Chobbly said:

    Unio77 said:

    Reading these comments and I see the passion everyone has to DD.
    Makes the crime act of his buff that much more criminal

    I can see that for DDHK's buff Kabam were trying out something new. They got it right with Kingpin but significantly less so with DDHK. Kingpin is far easier to use, has arguably more widely relevant utility, more consistent damage and has a built in way to deal with damaging Debuffs.

    There are areas of his kit which could benefit from attention, but trying to gain support stands a better chance if we focus on one aspect of the kit, the worst one. The most damning of those problem areas is the Base Regeneration Rate.

    I would like it fully restoring if possible. A small change would make a barely perceptible difference to the numbers. A strong restoration would give him a unique place in the midfield of Skill champs as a tough and resilient option for content other than those limited times which require a Miss Counter or combo control.

    Good point, but I also have to disagree with you there @Chobbly , I don’t think there is a ‘worst part’ to his kit.

    While the Regeneration is something new that they tried, and was poorly executed, and limits him from being useable in so many areas in the contest, in my opinion it’s still not part of the ‘core’ of his kit.

    You can liken his core kit to an engine. Kabam have replaced the engine, but the main part of the kit (let’s call it a catalytic converter) is not efficient. It makes the entire engine inefficient.

    In my opinion, while the regeneration hampers him greatly in the contest, once it’s fixed, the core issue in his kit is still not fixed. And that’s the following:

    Not enough uptime on the things that he does do well. His Cruelty and Precision duration need to be paused on striking the opponent or increased for him to hit his potential.

    This is crucial to his kit, as is the regeneration. Both are equally important, and one can not be given in place of the other.
    DDHK is really great at outputting damage , especially if you know how to get combo meter awareness down. I love DDHK and will post my thoughts tomorrow.

    I’m excited! Glad you commented on here, even though I have not seen eye to eye with you in the past (CGR vs Red Goblin). I feel like I have gotten much better at nailing the combo meter, but I am open to tips from somebody who has vastly more experience with this character than I do.

    For now, I have one question to ask. What sig is your DDHK? Mines is at sig 90. Does he benefit all that more from having the extra 5 seconds of Rage at Sig 200?
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,887 ★★★★★
    edited December 2021
    The image below is from a Kam MCOC video which I found in @Texas_11 ’s thread:

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/249181/proof-ddhk-needs-a-tune-up#latest

    DDHK post-buff lags BEHIND all other Skill champs showcased in the video below:



    He’s not a top Skill choice for Offense AND his regen neuters him.

    Kabam, just tune him up please.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,887 ★★★★★
    Also by Texas 11
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/259104/i-paved-the-way-so-you-don-t-have-to-ddhk/
    Good to see that the comments still stand and that new users (including myself) have similar findings:
    1) Fix Regen
    2) Uptime on Fury (imo unnecessary), what’s more necessary is the potency and uptime of Cruelty
    3) Increased chance to proc direct Bleed from Righteous Wrath. Right now building to SP3 makes 0 difference
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Rookiie said:

    Also by Texas 11
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/259104/i-paved-the-way-so-you-don-t-have-to-ddhk/
    Good to see that the comments still stand and that new users (including myself) have similar findings:
    1) Fix Regen
    2) Uptime on Fury (imo unnecessary), what’s more necessary is the potency and uptime of Cruelty
    3) Increased chance to proc direct Bleed from Righteous Wrath. Right now building to SP3 makes 0 difference

    And by “fix regen” it should be 100% like Diablo, Corvus, etc. IBom and the bunch.
  • ChobblyChobbly Posts: 417 ★★★
    Hopefully we can get a response soon. Looking forward to hearing Kabam's thoughts on this.

    The sad thing is for me, DDHK gets used these days more as a synergy partner for Kingpin than in his own right unless I need a Miss counter. He's worth more than that - or rather, he would be.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Chobbly said:

    Hopefully we can get a response soon. Looking forward to hearing Kabam's thoughts on this.

    The sad thing is for me, DDHK gets used these days more as a synergy partner for Kingpin than in his own right unless I need a Miss counter. He's worth more than that - or rather, he would be.

    100%. I mean the guy CAN do some good stuff. He’s just barely good for 1 fight, where it revolves around one key aspect - abysmal regen rate.
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,887 ★★★★★

    Chobbly said:

    Hopefully we can get a response soon. Looking forward to hearing Kabam's thoughts on this.

    The sad thing is for me, DDHK gets used these days more as a synergy partner for Kingpin than in his own right unless I need a Miss counter. He's worth more than that - or rather, he would be.

    100%. I mean the guy CAN do some good stuff. He’s just barely good for 1 fight, where it revolves around one key aspect - abysmal regen rate.

    Needs more uptime on buffs imo
    Let them be paused, or give him a good synergy that pauses them
    Or give him increased combat rate because it’s a bit slow and painful rn
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 3,887 ★★★★★
    You know what I think? I think DDHK was nerfed on release.
    There’s no way Kabam come up with a kit this good and complex, only for it to turn out sub-par.
    I think they nerfed his regen last minute, because non-suicide users were probably healing like nuts.
    I think they nerfed his damage too.
    The concept of the kit is too good, but the output is not so good.
    Doesn’t that seem off to you? Doesn’t that smell like a nerf? Doesn’t the fact that all his synergies do exactly what he should be doing in his base kit TELL you that somebody took him apart on release?
    Keep the Miss mechanic outside his kit.
    But why is Cruelty duration in a synergy? Why did they give it a cost of 5 combo meter? Why is it so painful to ramp him up? And why is the uptime too short?
  • ChobblyChobbly Posts: 417 ★★★
    Rookiie said:

    You know what I think? I think DDHK was nerfed on release.
    There’s no way Kabam come up with a kit this good and complex, only for it to turn out sub-par.
    I think they nerfed his regen last minute, because non-suicide users were probably healing like nuts.
    I think they nerfed his damage too.

    In the first Dev Notes in the spotlight, it does say that they found his healing to be too potent so they reduced the Regen, which does imply it came after the design of the kit. We know that Ebony Maw for instance was changed just prior to release.

    Whether during early testing or one minute before release though, the end result is the same. His viability took a hit to the face. He needs the Regen Rate sorting out.
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Chobbly said:

    Rookiie said:

    You know what I think? I think DDHK was nerfed on release.
    There’s no way Kabam come up with a kit this good and complex, only for it to turn out sub-par.
    I think they nerfed his regen last minute, because non-suicide users were probably healing like nuts.
    I think they nerfed his damage too.

    In the first Dev Notes in the spotlight, it does say that they found his healing to be too potent so they reduced the Regen, which does imply it came after the design of the kit. We know that Ebony Maw for instance was changed just prior to release.

    Whether during early testing or one minute before release though, the end result is the same. His viability took a hit to the face. He needs the Regen Rate sorting out.
    With the low damage I don’t believe any healing alone will fix him.

    You can’t have him at 40% regen and low to average damage (at best). Something has to give
  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    edited December 2021
    Here’s Magneto bleeding with liquid courage (max willpower)



    Magneto with liquid courage and double edge healing from his bleed resistance (max willpower)



  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    Same thing here with Corvus. Healing from max willpower from double edge





  • FluffyPigMonsterFluffyPigMonster Posts: 2,069 ★★★★★
    IBom and Diablo just healing from max willpower with their poison resistances. Complete healing.

    Double Edge has expired and now it’s all green



This discussion has been closed.