I really don't think kabam understands what they are doing, the game is in a horrible place right now. By removing this revive farm, and making this aweful alternative all they are going to get is maybe a surge of revenue before it plummets again in a few months when people get burned out specially the ones that have been playing this game for 3+ years. This is not a new game where people will be like this game is trying to find its identity so let's just deal with the shenanigans for now.
If the drop rate was really unintended why were we not informed within the first month or even the first 3 months.
Most people saying people exploited this don't understand is that for people to farm enough to breeze through EOP they had to do one of two things, either they have everything else completed so they could give every ounce of energy to 3.2.6 or for people who are still completing content and this will truly hurt they had to use energy refills and hence units to farm these revives because buying energy refills was more efficient than buying level 2 revives.
The only solutions I see.
1. Redact this aweful aweful change
2. Remove level 1 revive cap in inventory so that even if we need to farm months to do content we are not forced to spend units.
3. Alternatively if thats too unbalanced give them a 30 day expiry instead of 15 days.
4. Apothecary needs at least 3 revives a day with just one run 1 one for completion and 2 for exploration it would still be less than what people could do with 3.2.6
P.s. if kabam didn't understand the first para all you will do is make more of the non spenders quit. I'm sure you don't really care about them considering you don't even get the ad revenue from them which is precisely why this is aweful.
Yes this is what I posted above in a previous comment, they lost $700 million and are forcing Kabam to fill in the gap
This is a serious question. Do people actually think this is how companies work?
Scratch that. I don't really want to know. Let's talk accounting, something that few gaming company reporters and even fewer game players know anything about. Here's an excerpt from Netmarble's consolidated income statement, which was probably the source of the articles numbers:
This shows that Netmarble actually earned 40 billion won (about $31 million USD) in the fourth quarter and 46+22+21+40 = 129 billion won ($99 million USD) in 2022.
These numbers were lowered to a 20 billion won loss in Q4 or 105 billion won loss in 2022 ($81 million USD) due to D&A. D&A is depreciation and amortization. These losses are not real losses, they are collectively depreciation and amortization costs that have been spread out over time. Amortized expenses have already gone out the door, and have already been paid: they are just being accounted for here. Depreciation losses are losses due to stuff getting old. Neither of these things are actual "losses" and in general they aren't even happening now. This is almost certainly being reported on an accrual basis (meaning: when things happen and when they are accounted for are different to simplify analysis of the business numbers).
The biggest hit is due to non-operating income and cost. This is referenced in the article and in the financial statement as such: "According to Netmarble, such losses were caused by the “impairment losses of the intangible assets,” although it is unclear what assets the publisher meant by it."
Impairment losses of intangible assets refers to accounting assets on the books that do not refer to material goods. Most likely, these are IP assets Netmarble has acquired over the years with an asset valuation presumed from their estimated income generating capacity. General accounting rules specify that intangible asset impairments must be recorded on income statements as a revenue item impacting net profit and loss. In effect, my understanding of IAS 36 is that when the value of your indefinite intangible assets drops in a material way that loss in value should be recorded as a pseudo-loss in revenue that then accounts for the loss in value from the asset (basic double entry balancing accounting methodology).
In other words, Netmarble made a profit in 2022. Their amortized expenses and the amount they are allowed to depreciate fixed assets allowed them to record a small loss. The additional reduction in value of intangible assets (things that exist only on paper really) declined, allowing them to record an even steeper loss.
Because these losses are not actual cash flow losses but just accounting losses, this may be deliberate and advantageous to the company. Without knowing the specifics, we might just be seeing a clever CFO playing the game properly. But Netmarble is not losing millions of dollars.
[My wife is a CPA and I helped her study for the CPA exam. I'm a lot more familiar with GAAP and IFRS than I really want to be, but occasionally its useful.]
L.O.L.
as a not so proud owner of 5 shares of netmarble since 2018 I'll tell you that this is malarkey, and Netmarble currently is much more likely to spin kabam off if it weren't such a terrible market everywhere. ask mrs. cpa about why their market cap is trash. I'll tell you why: like every other company they're busy writing down everything that's not bolted down while trying to find ways to squeeze every last drop from the few things working. i predict by q2 if things don't change appreciably, we'll see some real interesting stuff.
other than that, your posts seem to entertain the employees, so that's a plus.
First, I would recommend not buying any more shares of anything before you learn the difference between shareholder equity and profit and loss. Maybe stick to index funds.
Not gonna lie, I probably just won't bother doing content instead of committing extra time in the game building up and inventory then doing the content. I've never seen a worse job reading a room than with this game. I can't do more than 2 or 3 fights without having a couple freezes during gameplay. Revives spent will be the same as always this just tries to force people to pay for them. It's a video game, these people are seriously as tone deaf as it gets if this is their strategy to increase revenue. Like someone in my ally chat said, I hope this game just dies off and my ties with kabam products can end with it.
So if I'm hearing this right kabam is saying that using all these revives is a way of making their content less difficult and is taking away the risk for reward. So would kabam care if I spend 100$ on revives to make content easier? Lmfao
You know, with all these vehement disagreements even amongst players - I seriously worry about the day when Forum Guardians are introduced.
This thread is by far one of the most scandalous issues to have been talked about and I sincerely hope whoever our Guardians are use that power in the most unbiased ways. And hopefully under very guided attention from actual forum mods
There already a few kabam employees on the thread outside of jax. It’s not hard to spot a couple. Just read what they say. Specially when they use the terms like we and saying stuff that only kabam employees would. They not hard to spot at all
Now that’s wrong. While there are people who may agree with this, that doesn’t make them an employee. They can have their differing opinions. While in the minority, and most of us potentially think are wrong, it is still their option. It doesn’t make them an employee or a shill.
You obviously didn’t read what I said. The ones are obvious when they say WE based it off this.
As far as I am aware, it is against Kabam's rules to astroturf. If a Kabam employee is posting in this forum, they are required to post under an official Kabam handle.
It is also against the forum rules to accuse someone of being a Kabam employee or shill if they do not identify themselves as a Kabam employee.
I’ll say it again just for the sake of emphasis but a real compromise to the problem of content being blown through with enough revives is just to nerf Hercules. Most people don’t want Hercules nerfed but his existence is bad for the game design. You’re crunching the numbers and you’re seeing that it should be about this difficult if you’re using this champion, or much easier if you use Hercules. Most people are taking the Herc route, and by nature it’s inflating the difficulty of the content you’re designing because you don’t want to make it too easy.
For example, I did a couple of my EOP runs with my objective champions from the start. It was over ten times more difficult to get through the first four fights that way than it was for me to bring a 5* Hercules at the start and just turn my brain off instead. You had to make EOP that difficult, because of him.
You guys want to nerf him anyway, but you’re afraid of the backlash. But I honestly think the majority of the playerbase would rather you just get it over with and nerf him so that way you don’t need to design ridiculously difficult content that you pretty much have to revive farm just to get through with Hercules
This is a vicious cycle that Kabam set up. The poor controls and the BS nodes mean you're probably going to die so you might as well use a nuke champ to do as much damage as you can first, potions are everywhere but super suck vs revives that are consistently in a few places that are easy to keep track of. If I'm only using revives, I need a bunch of them, so I'm going to where the revives are, and I'm going often. In many cases, using one revive is cheaper, faster, and objectively more beneficial than filling up with a zillion potions AND a revive for your nuke champs. I can't dip out of the content and go grind for revives, so I need more than I think I'll use, just in case.
If Kabam would make content that didn't favor nuking it down or figuring out the cheese, people wouldn't pursue the nuke or chase cheese.
If Hercules was nerfed to be less than optimal, I would use someone else and still nuke it if that was the most effective route that cost the least and I still wanted to complete the content. If Hercules was still great, just not as, I would probably still use him if he was the best option I had at a useful rank and sig level. I'd use Immortal Hulk but Kabam chose to give him a double dose of all the weaknesses and unreliability they didn't build into Hercules and I still like OG nuke Corvus, but the content that has the good rewards doesn't favor him anymore. There are niche cheese solutions that most players don't have at a useful sig and rarity and the supreme skill solutions that only a handful of players can use effectively. So until Kabam gets more creative and less punishy, people will keep using the best tool available.
I’ll say it again just for the sake of emphasis but a real compromise to the problem of content being blown through with enough revives is just to nerf Hercules. Most people don’t want Hercules nerfed but his existence is bad for the game design. You’re crunching the numbers and you’re seeing that it should be about this difficult if you’re using this champion, or much easier if you use Hercules. Most people are taking the Herc route, and by nature it’s inflating the difficulty of the content you’re designing because you don’t want to make it too easy.
For example, I did a couple of my EOP runs with my objective champions from the start. It was over ten times more difficult to get through the first four fights that way than it was for me to bring a 5* Hercules at the start and just turn my brain off instead. You had to make EOP that difficult, because of him.
You guys want to nerf him anyway, but you’re afraid of the backlash. But I honestly think the majority of the playerbase would rather you just get it over with and nerf him so that way you don’t need to design ridiculously difficult content that you pretty much have to revive farm just to get through with Hercules
This is a vicious cycle that Kabam set up. The poor controls and the BS nodes mean you're probably going to die so you might as well use a nuke champ to do as much damage as you can first, potions are everywhere but super suck vs revives that are consistently in a few places that are easy to keep track of. If I'm only using revives, I need a bunch of them, so I'm going to where the revives are, and I'm going often. In many cases, using one revive is cheaper, faster, and objectively more beneficial than filling up with a zillion potions AND a revive for your nuke champs. I can't dip out of the content and go grind for revives, so I need more than I think I'll use, just in case.
If Kabam would make content that didn't favor nuking it down or figuring out the cheese, people wouldn't pursue the nuke or chase cheese.
If Hercules was nerfed to be less than optimal, I would use someone else and still nuke it if that was the most effective route that cost the least and I still wanted to complete the content. If Hercules was still great, just not as, I would probably still use him if he was the best option I had at a useful rank and sig level. I'd use Immortal Hulk but Kabam chose to give him a double dose of all the weaknesses and unreliability they didn't build into Hercules and I still like OG nuke Corvus, but the content that has the good rewards doesn't favor him anymore. There are niche cheese solutions that most players don't have at a useful sig and rarity and the supreme skill solutions that only a handful of players can use effectively. So until Kabam gets more creative and less punishy, people will keep using the best tool available.
If people not using the best tools available to em that’s really on them not on kabam or other players. And this saying goes to that and as to what kabam doing
Yes this is what I posted above in a previous comment, they lost $700 million and are forcing Kabam to fill in the gap
This is a serious question. Do people actually think this is how companies work?
Scratch that. I don't really want to know. Let's talk accounting, something that few gaming company reporters and even fewer game players know anything about. Here's an excerpt from Netmarble's consolidated income statement, which was probably the source of the articles numbers:
This shows that Netmarble actually earned 40 billion won (about $31 million USD) in the fourth quarter and 46+22+21+40 = 129 billion won ($99 million USD) in 2022.
These numbers were lowered to a 20 billion won loss in Q4 or 105 billion won loss in 2022 ($81 million USD) due to D&A. D&A is depreciation and amortization. These losses are not real losses, they are collectively depreciation and amortization costs that have been spread out over time. Amortized expenses have already gone out the door, and have already been paid: they are just being accounted for here. Depreciation losses are losses due to stuff getting old. Neither of these things are actual "losses" and in general they aren't even happening now. This is almost certainly being reported on an accrual basis (meaning: when things happen and when they are accounted for are different to simplify analysis of the business numbers).
The biggest hit is due to non-operating income and cost. This is referenced in the article and in the financial statement as such: "According to Netmarble, such losses were caused by the “impairment losses of the intangible assets,” although it is unclear what assets the publisher meant by it."
Impairment losses of intangible assets refers to accounting assets on the books that do not refer to material goods. Most likely, these are IP assets Netmarble has acquired over the years with an asset valuation presumed from their estimated income generating capacity. General accounting rules specify that intangible asset impairments must be recorded on income statements as a revenue item impacting net profit and loss. In effect, my understanding of IAS 36 is that when the value of your indefinite intangible assets drops in a material way that loss in value should be recorded as a pseudo-loss in revenue that then accounts for the loss in value from the asset (basic double entry balancing accounting methodology).
In other words, Netmarble made a profit in 2022. Their amortized expenses and the amount they are allowed to depreciate fixed assets allowed them to record a small loss. The additional reduction in value of intangible assets (things that exist only on paper really) declined, allowing them to record an even steeper loss.
Because these losses are not actual cash flow losses but just accounting losses, this may be deliberate and advantageous to the company. Without knowing the specifics, we might just be seeing a clever CFO playing the game properly. But Netmarble is not losing millions of dollars.
[My wife is a CPA and I helped her study for the CPA exam. I'm a lot more familiar with GAAP and IFRS than I really want to be, but occasionally its useful.]
L.O.L.
as a not so proud owner of 5 shares of netmarble since 2018 I'll tell you that this is malarkey, and Netmarble currently is much more likely to spin kabam off if it weren't such a terrible market everywhere. ask mrs. cpa about why their market cap is trash. I'll tell you why: like every other company they're busy writing down everything that's not bolted down while trying to find ways to squeeze every last drop from the few things working. i predict by q2 if things don't change appreciably, we'll see some real interesting stuff.
other than that, your posts seem to entertain the employees, so that's a plus.
First, I would recommend not buying any more shares of anything before you learn the difference between shareholder equity and profit and loss. Maybe stick to index funds.
Second, I'll take that bet.
Can I take that bet also? I'll wager my entire stash of revives (which will reach a premium value in April btw)
Well, this was a long thread to miss while busy at work…..
Initial thoughts (because I’m tired and am in the middle of my Spectacular Spiders EOP run):
- Level 1 revives in 2.1.5 and 3.2.5 are currently costing me 30-33 energy on average, which translates to ~13 units per revive if I strictly bought my full refills. I would really love to see the actual drop rates and data like which was referenced in the initial announcement. But alas, I imagine Kabam doesn’t feel like handing that out. - I don’t like the idea of such a cap (~1 revive per day in this quest) but I suppose revives can be earned through solo events and through playing arena. - While we are talking about a potentially endless source of revives, why are we not talking more about arena? The return is a bit worse, (not about to figure out the data for that) but it’s also one of the most boring possible game modes that has really only changed in rewards and not overall design since it was introduced. - I do get the sentiment of not letting players trivialize endgame content, but it just seems silly to limit this source of revives but then allow the normal 40 units / L2 revive to be an endless source. In my first point, I referenced the technical cost of an L1 revive being around 13 units if you strictly bought full energy refills to use for farming. This is debatably a great price, as it gets you half of the health, but also bumps your character from KOed to playable. I would have initially guessed the price to be somewhere more like 25 units, with ~15 units being assigned to the hp and ~10 units to the commodity of being playable again. - Why have L1 revives never been endlessly purchasable? I supposed it was so that there was a base minimum cost for all those fights that just have one combo left of health, thus costing you just a little more and making it just a little more of a challenge (? I suppose). Has Kabam ever commented on this?
Now, this may be a terrible solution, so let me hear it (as I’m sure you will) if you disagree. Revive farming is kinda unnecessary and takes time that we could be putting in to more fun content. Really, it’s a bit sad that there even has to be an autofight button, as it takes away the whole point of the game: to play the game (don’t @ me though, it was the right call to introduce it and I love it, but I digress). The big issue seems to be (and I’ll directly quote the original announcement) “This frenzied revive farming trivializes difficult content like Carina’s Challenges and Eternity of Pain because Summoners simply spam revives. For us to allow what is effectively a loophole for these challenging pieces of content, we would have to dilute rewards given from that content, and that is not something we want to do. ”
Nowhere in the statement “simply spam revives” does revive farming directly come up. The problem in “trivializing difficult content” is not that revives are available in an endless quantity (because they are) but that they are endlessly applicable in that content. If the problem is really that players can endlessly throw revives, why not limit the application of revives and not laser focus on one resourceful method of obtaining revives that does not actually solve the problem? If the problem of endlessly available revives for a price is a problem, then state it as such and this would all make more sense.
Here are my suggestions to Kabam: 1. Make L1 revives purchasable for whatever amount of units (and even for energy) that you think is appropriate, or have a direct value that you can calculate from your code that they are obtainable at now. Cut out the farming, and make it purchasable. 2. Make a more user friendly and less ridiculously muddled store section of the game. It’s wild how many options of screens there are and there must be a better way to organize it. 3. Make content that you want to be “challenging” have a limit on potions vaguely similar to AW. This could be bracketed into a specific number of revives, and a separate available number of potions, or however you want. This will not stop people from completing content, just give a direct goal for them to achieve it under and limit the actual issue of revive spamming. It would be great if this were correlated to the inventory cap, but it depends on the content. Players could still stash up revives, but when they reached their limit on the quest, they would have to start over again to make use of the rest. Payed players could still have the advantage of not having to accumulate the units/energy for revives, but it would be a challenge to all players in as much of an equal way as possible. The current fix of still allowing unitman but not revive farming just doesn’t seem reasonable at all. 4. Hire DNA to explain MCOC statistics just like Cat does art/infographics.
I really appreciate a lot of the views I’ve seen above and the community so willing to speak out when something has a big impact on their game. Big thanks to Jax and all those that have to manage the community without really being able to make the decisions yourselves.
I’ll say it again just for the sake of emphasis but a real compromise to the problem of content being blown through with enough revives is just to nerf Hercules. Most people don’t want Hercules nerfed but his existence is bad for the game design. You’re crunching the numbers and you’re seeing that it should be about this difficult if you’re using this champion, or much easier if you use Hercules. Most people are taking the Herc route, and by nature it’s inflating the difficulty of the content you’re designing because you don’t want to make it too easy.
For example, I did a couple of my EOP runs with my objective champions from the start. It was over ten times more difficult to get through the first four fights that way than it was for me to bring a 5* Hercules at the start and just turn my brain off instead. You had to make EOP that difficult, because of him.
You guys want to nerf him anyway, but you’re afraid of the backlash. But I honestly think the majority of the playerbase would rather you just get it over with and nerf him so that way you don’t need to design ridiculously difficult content that you pretty much have to revive farm just to get through with Hercules
This is a vicious cycle that Kabam set up. The poor controls and the BS nodes mean you're probably going to die so you might as well use a nuke champ to do as much damage as you can first, potions are everywhere but super suck vs revives that are consistently in a few places that are easy to keep track of. If I'm only using revives, I need a bunch of them, so I'm going to where the revives are, and I'm going often. In many cases, using one revive is cheaper, faster, and objectively more beneficial than filling up with a zillion potions AND a revive for your nuke champs. I can't dip out of the content and go grind for revives, so I need more than I think I'll use, just in case.
If Kabam would make content that didn't favor nuking it down or figuring out the cheese, people wouldn't pursue the nuke or chase cheese.
If Hercules was nerfed to be less than optimal, I would use someone else and still nuke it if that was the most effective route that cost the least and I still wanted to complete the content. If Hercules was still great, just not as, I would probably still use him if he was the best option I had at a useful rank and sig level. I'd use Immortal Hulk but Kabam chose to give him a double dose of all the weaknesses and unreliability they didn't build into Hercules and I still like OG nuke Corvus, but the content that has the good rewards doesn't favor him anymore. There are niche cheese solutions that most players don't have at a useful sig and rarity and the supreme skill solutions that only a handful of players can use effectively. So until Kabam gets more creative and less punishy, people will keep using the best tool available.
Players will seek the simplest solution to the problem at hand whether it’s Hercules, Corvus, or whoever. That’s their prerogative. The difference with Hercules is that a single 20% revive in his hands is going to go much much further than that revive in Corvus’s. Because Hercules is this way, the entire mindset of creating the content changes and the difficulty has to spike up to accommodate the cheese potential. Nerfing Hercules is going to make a large chunk of the playerbase sore but it’d be ultimately beneficial when you’re able to use your favorite champs with a little bit of skill again instead of tossing revives at Hercules until your path is cleared.
When they say end game players farm 100k to 300k revives daily. What is number of players farming 300k revives daily? 100 players or 100k players. It most like 300k players are farming 300k revives that why they decided to make the change and give 1 revive daily. But if that not the case. Even then every player should able to farm as many revives as they want. If you really wanted to nerd just nerf the energy refills. By that I means stop spawning energy refills. You can only spend around 200 energy a day so that like 4-5 revives a day. Which more than fair. And if you really care about improving people auto playing old story Content then just bring back the auto complete and you will get one revive guarantee every time complete and can be done innumerable times as long as you have can spend energy. I mean that is more than fair considering you dnt get a lot of energy every day and decrease or eliminate the amount of energy refills you can farm ingame in story content. At least 5 revives a day with 1-2 level 4 or 5 potion is more than fair. The energy refills expire in 14 days. So even if you 5 revives a day excluding fails events that like 70 revives in the overflow for 2 weeks per player. So if like 1000 players are farming 300k revives daily for 14 days that 42k revives per players in 14 days. This why you are nerfing. We understand it needs to be addressed but at least address it like civil adults not like children. Because even with 100 revives that Content is not doable. See player streams where they spent 150+ revives to clear Content.
"You're walking a fine line." "You're tempting fate." "You're headed for a fall." "You're skating on thin ice." "You're playing with dynamite." "You're taking a big risk." "You're courting disaster." "You're asking for trouble." "You're driving off a cliff." "You're on a collision course."
Revive farming has hit insane levels recently and does need to be controlled to some extent. But completely nerfing 3.2.6 seems unfair, and the apothecary offers absolutely garbage rewards for the current state of the game. The apothecary is supposed to "take away the RNG" yet only gives a 1% on easy and 5% chance on hard of rewarding an additional revive. The apothecary rewards should at a minimum be at least two level 2 revives and a few level 3 or 4 health potions to keep up with the current meta of the game. Revives and potions have been a part of the game since the beginning and are still around for us to use for questing. I understand Kabam not wanting us as a player base to spam revive Hercules with a 20%'s all the time, but this announcement and move by Kabam seems like a complete 180° turn around completely shutting down farming from the 300k revs per day to one level 1 revive per player a day that will probably expire in the player's stash unless there is some Everest/Challenging content to currently play. This by no means feels like a "compromise" but rather Kabam forcing their policy upon us. If anything this seems like Kabam is taking away alternative ways for players to acquire revives which aid them with challenging content that they are stuck on so that we have to use the champion Kabam has always wanted us to use: Unit-man. Because why farm revives when Kabam can farm our wallets?
I hope Kabam listens to the community feedback on this one and actually communicates with the community if they achieve "compromise". @KabamJax
Something must be changed before this goes into effect.
Wasn't easier to eliminate Cavalier/Thronebeaker and Paragon from being able to get items from Book 1 Quests? That way if we jeeded to get revives.. well Book 2 would be our options for farmin and a smaller chance of revives on Realm of Legens and Labyrinth?
This is going to have the opposite impact they're going for, only it won't happen right away. People won't quit because of this, they'll just phase out over time. For me I've been spending all energy lately building a stash for my last carina challenge in EoP. I auto fight those revives while I do other stuff, remove the revive farming and that in game time doesn't divert to another area of the game, it's just no longer open and active.
New revive heavy content comes out and that time no longer spent in the game results in not having the inventory to do new content and I'm not spending money on revives so I just don't do it. Again time doing newest hard content is just not spent in the game. As the spenders advance more rapidly you just lose interest in what it will take to try and keep moderately competitive and mcoc time dwindles more. Sooner or later the player base starts to thin out. New players can't advance quick enough to keep the higher players engaged and you've effectively phased out a lot of players who are already burnt out enough after years of a very demanding virtual hobby.
Without 3.2.6 farming I wouldn't have done half the EoP challenges I have, and that's about the only really engaging thing in mcoc lately that isn't just routine. It'll take a bit of time to get there but it doesn't feel like an exaggeration to say this sort of thing is the first step out the door for myself and if the two ally chats I'm part of are any indication I'm far from alone in that.
Cool, a new way to get consumables that were barely relevant in 2018. I can't wait till 2050 when I can heal my r4 6* without using double digit amount of potions.
Thank you for your feedback, we are reading every comment. Please keep your messages constructive; most of you have so far, thank you for that.
Based on the feedback in this thread, we have started internal discussions around adjusting revive/potion inventory caps. This is not a guaranteed change, but is what is most prominently being discussed.
These conversations will continue to take place behind the scenes and could grow to include other potential adjustments as well.
We will use this thread to provide updates if/when we have news to share.
This happens every year or so. Kabam wants a huge correction that will kneecap players, so they overdo it intentionally to create the overwhelming reaction. They sit and watch it churn for a while and then slide in with a "no promises, but we're talking about things over here".
Eventually, the kneecapping is right where they wanted it and players stupidly feel like they got a small win in a bad situation. Kabam has used the same crowd control techniques since 12.0. It's crazy that it always seems to work on people. It's funny how it's always a new rep that does it. I'm guessing their studies show that one time is all you get before you burn any capital that had been previously built up.
Players seem to be smarter on the whole now. Maybe it's memories of all the other times when they've been absolutely screwed, idk. I've seen a whole lotta love for this paeticular rep and maybe he's earned that. Idk, I've been gone. Either way, using the fav rep to run this scheme is the way it goes lol.
Nevertheless, kabam doesn't want you having enough revives. Doesn't matter (to them) if they said it was OK before. They said AA's passive stun was ok right here on the forum. Then they took it away bc it was "game-breaking" and introduced the new character w passive stun. It's how this stuff works. And that's the bottom line. Kabam isn't going to permaban players that keep rewards from you. Kabam isn't going to fix the things that haunt you every time you play. Kabam isn't going to make a fair game for those competitive players out there. And they're not going to let you earn what you need to get thru content... Not in the way you want. But they are going to present poo sandwiches to you and tell you they're full of vitamins and minerals and riboflavin and we have to eat then for the good of the game.
It's not bc they can't fix things or make proper corrections... It's bc investing into any of that isn't worth what they'll get out of it. The calculations have been done by a team of people you pay and it's not worth it. Never has been. Never will be. That team is much larger and better compensated than anyone that's "dedicated to investigating" war seasons or bg's or arenas btw.
People just need to figure out what their investment is worth to them tbh.
It’s absurd how hypocritical their post is. They say they want us to earn consumables without worrying about RNG, and then give us a 5% chance to get a level 2 revive.
This is going to have the opposite impact they're going for, only it won't happen right away. People won't quit because of this, they'll just phase out over time. For me I've been spending all energy lately building a stash for my last carina challenge in EoP. I auto fight those revives while I do other stuff, remove the revive farming and that in game time doesn't divert to another area of the game, it's just no longer open and active.
New revive heavy content comes out and that time no longer spent in the game results in not having the inventory to do new content and I'm not spending money on revives so I just don't do it. Again time doing newest hard content is just not spent in the game. As the spenders advance more rapidly you just lose interest in what it will take to try and keep moderately competitive and mcoc time dwindles more. Sooner or later the player base starts to thin out. New players can't advance quick enough to keep the higher players engaged and you've effectively phased out a lot of players who are already burnt out enough after years of a very demanding virtual hobby.
Without 3.2.6 farming I wouldn't have done half the EoP challenges I have, and that's about the only really engaging thing in mcoc lately that isn't just routine. It'll take a bit of time to get there but it doesn't feel like an exaggeration to say this sort of thing is the first step out the door for myself and if the two ally chats I'm part of are any indication I'm far from alone in that.
It’s genuinely bewildering that the thought process is “if we take away this method of getting resources then the players will buy them instead” when more accurately, we just won’t want to do the content so we don’t risk getting stuck in the quest
Kabam’s logic in their post is incredibly duplicitous. They talk about how the issue is people being able to brute force end-game content with revives. But this proposed change doesn’t actually stop that, it just requires us to PAY to do it. If they were really concerned about how people are completing endgame content, the solution already exists in a form in the game: item use limits like we have in AQ and AW.
But of course, they never considered this because the problem they provided as justification is a smokescreen for what they really want, which is to force people to spend more money to complete end-game content, including that content which was explicitly designed to require significant revives when it was released (ie Carina’s 4 star labyrinth challenges).
revive farm involves time spent in game, a lot of us value time spent, and the more time we spend on something the more committed we are to it and more likely we are to spend on other areas of the game.
Since we are so committed to it, but with this nerf of revives means we will spend less time playing this game and what will happen to that “free” time we probably will move to another game that will entice us and maybe we get engaged enough that the money we would have spent in mcoc we now spend in our new hobby that we found with the new “free” time we got.
im lucky enough to have completed Carina V3 100% and 8.2, Abyss etc, but I feel bad for those that haven’t had the chance to complete it yet as a free to play experience as i did.
Kabam created contents which requires hundreds of revives (don't trust those solo, those youtubers tried dozens of times and spend a lot of energy refills to get ONE SOLO), and it is NOT OK to allow players to farm hundreds of revives for those contents, but it is OK for players to spend thousands of units to buy hundreds of revives.
To be honest, I cannot see the reasonable logic behind this decision.
You have no problem having me spam revives if I pay for them but not if I've farm them. Well thanks for letting me know how greedy you are. My spending stops here.
What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.
How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?
This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.
I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.
Bro, you haven’t completed any content.
I'm sorry: who are you again, and what have you done that I'm supposed to care about?
I’ll say it again just for the sake of emphasis but a real compromise to the problem of content being blown through with enough revives is just to nerf Hercules. Most people don’t want Hercules nerfed but his existence is bad for the game design. You’re crunching the numbers and you’re seeing that it should be about this difficult if you’re using this champion, or much easier if you use Hercules. Most people are taking the Herc route, and by nature it’s inflating the difficulty of the content you’re designing because you don’t want to make it too easy.
For example, I did a couple of my EOP runs with my objective champions from the start. It was over ten times more difficult to get through the first four fights that way than it was for me to bring a 5* Hercules at the start and just turn my brain off instead. You had to make EOP that difficult, because of him.
You guys want to nerf him anyway, but you’re afraid of the backlash. But I honestly think the majority of the playerbase would rather you just get it over with and nerf him so that way you don’t need to design ridiculously difficult content that you pretty much have to revive farm just to get through with Hercules
This is a vicious cycle that Kabam set up. The poor controls and the BS nodes mean you're probably going to die so you might as well use a nuke champ to do as much damage as you can first, potions are everywhere but super suck vs revives that are consistently in a few places that are easy to keep track of. If I'm only using revives, I need a bunch of them, so I'm going to where the revives are, and I'm going often. In many cases, using one revive is cheaper, faster, and objectively more beneficial than filling up with a zillion potions AND a revive for your nuke champs. I can't dip out of the content and go grind for revives, so I need more than I think I'll use, just in case.
If Kabam would make content that didn't favor nuking it down or figuring out the cheese, people wouldn't pursue the nuke or chase cheese.
If Hercules was nerfed to be less than optimal, I would use someone else and still nuke it if that was the most effective route that cost the least and I still wanted to complete the content. If Hercules was still great, just not as, I would probably still use him if he was the best option I had at a useful rank and sig level. I'd use Immortal Hulk but Kabam chose to give him a double dose of all the weaknesses and unreliability they didn't build into Hercules and I still like OG nuke Corvus, but the content that has the good rewards doesn't favor him anymore. There are niche cheese solutions that most players don't have at a useful sig and rarity and the supreme skill solutions that only a handful of players can use effectively. So until Kabam gets more creative and less punishy, people will keep using the best tool available.
Players will seek the simplest solution to the problem at hand whether it’s Hercules, Corvus, or whoever. That’s their prerogative. The difference with Hercules is that a single 20% revive in his hands is going to go much much further than that revive in Corvus’s. Because Hercules is this way, the entire mindset of creating the content changes and the difficulty has to spike up to accommodate the cheese potential. Nerfing Hercules is going to make a large chunk of the playerbase sore but it’d be ultimately beneficial when you’re able to use your favorite champs with a little bit of skill again instead of tossing revives at Hercules until your path is cleared.
Once Kabam nerfs Hercules, then what? We'll enter a golden age of pure skill and enlightened low tier champ play that someone else finds aesthetically pleasing? Or will it be next nuke champ up + a revive? A YouTuber doing an itemless speed run with Hercules doesn't mean that Hercules is too op for me to fumble around with. Whoever I use, it's going to be with a bunch of revives. I don't have the time to waste honing my skills with suboptimal champs at a game I'm not getting paid to play because some rando thinks I have it too easy and need to suffer more so I "get good". For me, once the stack of nodes gets past a certain point of complexity, bs, and meter watching, I'm going to assess the nukability and the cheeseability and proceed with the most effective for me option I have available.
What a disgusting money grab. Shame on you, you vultures.
How much are you planning on increasing your spending after this change? Because I wasn't planning on spending more because of this change. How exactly is this going to make money? Who's going to be spending more?
This is just wrong DNA. Do you not remember before the revive path? In most cases, it was drop an Odin or don't complete the content. This is an awful change.
I have never spent cash to complete any content in the game. I have no plans to start any time soon.
Bro, you haven’t completed any content.
I'm sorry: who are you again, and what have you done that I'm supposed to care about?
That can also go towards you too. Who are you and why do we care what you think? See how not nice that was.
What did you do to get DNA upset? Literally have never seen them respond that way to anyone on forums.
I’ll say it again just for the sake of emphasis but a real compromise to the problem of content being blown through with enough revives is just to nerf Hercules. Most people don’t want Hercules nerfed but his existence is bad for the game design. You’re crunching the numbers and you’re seeing that it should be about this difficult if you’re using this champion, or much easier if you use Hercules. Most people are taking the Herc route, and by nature it’s inflating the difficulty of the content you’re designing because you don’t want to make it too easy.
For example, I did a couple of my EOP runs with my objective champions from the start. It was over ten times more difficult to get through the first four fights that way than it was for me to bring a 5* Hercules at the start and just turn my brain off instead. You had to make EOP that difficult, because of him.
You guys want to nerf him anyway, but you’re afraid of the backlash. But I honestly think the majority of the playerbase would rather you just get it over with and nerf him so that way you don’t need to design ridiculously difficult content that you pretty much have to revive farm just to get through with Hercules
This is a vicious cycle that Kabam set up. The poor controls and the BS nodes mean you're probably going to die so you might as well use a nuke champ to do as much damage as you can first, potions are everywhere but super suck vs revives that are consistently in a few places that are easy to keep track of. If I'm only using revives, I need a bunch of them, so I'm going to where the revives are, and I'm going often. In many cases, using one revive is cheaper, faster, and objectively more beneficial than filling up with a zillion potions AND a revive for your nuke champs. I can't dip out of the content and go grind for revives, so I need more than I think I'll use, just in case.
If Kabam would make content that didn't favor nuking it down or figuring out the cheese, people wouldn't pursue the nuke or chase cheese.
If Hercules was nerfed to be less than optimal, I would use someone else and still nuke it if that was the most effective route that cost the least and I still wanted to complete the content. If Hercules was still great, just not as, I would probably still use him if he was the best option I had at a useful rank and sig level. I'd use Immortal Hulk but Kabam chose to give him a double dose of all the weaknesses and unreliability they didn't build into Hercules and I still like OG nuke Corvus, but the content that has the good rewards doesn't favor him anymore. There are niche cheese solutions that most players don't have at a useful sig and rarity and the supreme skill solutions that only a handful of players can use effectively. So until Kabam gets more creative and less punishy, people will keep using the best tool available.
Players will seek the simplest solution to the problem at hand whether it’s Hercules, Corvus, or whoever. That’s their prerogative. The difference with Hercules is that a single 20% revive in his hands is going to go much much further than that revive in Corvus’s. Because Hercules is this way, the entire mindset of creating the content changes and the difficulty has to spike up to accommodate the cheese potential. Nerfing Hercules is going to make a large chunk of the playerbase sore but it’d be ultimately beneficial when you’re able to use your favorite champs with a little bit of skill again instead of tossing revives at Hercules until your path is cleared.
Once Kabam nerfs Hercules, then what? We'll enter a golden age of pure skill and enlightened low tier champ play that someone else finds aesthetically pleasing? Or will it be next nuke champ up + a revive? A YouTuber doing an itemless speed run with Hercules doesn't mean that Hercules is too op for me to fumble around with. Whoever I use, it's going to be with a bunch of revives. I don't have the time to waste honing my skills with suboptimal champs at a game I'm not getting paid to play because some rando thinks I have it too easy and need to suffer more so I "get good". For me, once the stack of nodes gets past a certain point of complexity, bs, and meter watching, I'm going to assess the nukability and the cheeseability and proceed with the most effective for me option I have available.
Where am I saying that you have it too good and should step your skills up with other champs besides Hercules? I’m saying that BECAUSE Hercules exists, they’re making content harder to accommodate for that. You wouldn’t need to search for the nuke options if you didn’t need to nuke the content due to how difficult they made it. The other existing nuke champs don’t benefit even nearly as much from said revives as Hercules does and is therefore a non-issue. The devs themselves will tell you that Hercules has been a nightmare for them and they’re taking it out on the playerbase in every other way except for nerfing him because they’re afraid of the backlash that would cause
Herc needs to be re-balanced ASAP! His lack of DPS and sustainability makes him so underwhelming. I hate exaggerating but he's bringing down the contest all by himself.
Keep him as is plus:
1. Replace True Sense buff on sp1 with True Strike passive and add it to sp2 and sp3. 2. No longer need to special intercept to get 3 precision or cruelty buffs 3. Once per fight Immortality can tank sp3s and is also paused during defender special attacks 4. SP3 - once per fight, for each precision and or cruelty activated during the fight, regenerate 5% of max health for each buff. 5. Herc's rugged chest hair makes him immune to coldsnap and frostbite effects. 6. Oncee fight per quest, when Hercules suffers from an incinerate effect, his thick tuft of chest hair gets singed off acting as a protective barrier and removing all incinerate damage.
If you have any more suggestions, please list them. This under performing champ was so worthless that we has tossed in as an option in one of those 6* 2021 Cyber Monday crystals. Please halp!
Haha that’s awesome. We know kabam wants to nerf him and kitty. They’ve said as much
Comments
If the drop rate was really unintended why were we not informed within the first month or even the first 3 months.
Most people saying people exploited this don't understand is that for people to farm enough to breeze through EOP they had to do one of two things, either they have everything else completed so they could give every ounce of energy to 3.2.6 or for people who are still completing content and this will truly hurt they had to use energy refills and hence units to farm these revives because buying energy refills was more efficient than buying level 2 revives.
The only solutions I see.
1. Redact this aweful aweful change
2. Remove level 1 revive cap in inventory so that even if we need to farm months to do content we are not forced to spend units.
3. Alternatively if thats too unbalanced give them a 30 day expiry instead of 15 days.
4. Apothecary needs at least 3 revives a day with just one run 1 one for completion and 2 for exploration it would still be less than what people could do with 3.2.6
P.s. if kabam didn't understand the first para all you will do is make more of the non spenders quit. I'm sure you don't really care about them considering you don't even get the ad revenue from them which is precisely why this is aweful.
Second, I'll take that bet.
It is also against the forum rules to accuse someone of being a Kabam employee or shill if they do not identify themselves as a Kabam employee.
If Kabam would make content that didn't favor nuking it down or figuring out the cheese, people wouldn't pursue the nuke or chase cheese.
If Hercules was nerfed to be less than optimal, I would use someone else and still nuke it if that was the most effective route that cost the least and I still wanted to complete the content. If Hercules was still great, just not as, I would probably still use him if he was the best option I had at a useful rank and sig level. I'd use Immortal Hulk but Kabam chose to give him a double dose of all the weaknesses and unreliability they didn't build into Hercules and I still like OG nuke Corvus, but the content that has the good rewards doesn't favor him anymore. There are niche cheese solutions that most players don't have at a useful sig and rarity and the supreme skill solutions that only a handful of players can use effectively. So until Kabam gets more creative and less punishy, people will keep using the best tool available.
Work smarter not harder
Initial thoughts (because I’m tired and am in the middle of my Spectacular Spiders EOP run):
- Level 1 revives in 2.1.5 and 3.2.5 are currently costing me 30-33 energy on average, which translates to ~13 units per revive if I strictly bought my full refills. I would really love to see the actual drop rates and data like which was referenced in the initial announcement. But alas, I imagine Kabam doesn’t feel like handing that out.
- I don’t like the idea of such a cap (~1 revive per day in this quest) but I suppose revives can be earned through solo events and through playing arena.
- While we are talking about a potentially endless source of revives, why are we not talking more about arena? The return is a bit worse, (not about to figure out the data for that) but it’s also one of the most boring possible game modes that has really only changed in rewards and not overall design since it was introduced.
- I do get the sentiment of not letting players trivialize endgame content, but it just seems silly to limit this source of revives but then allow the normal 40 units / L2 revive to be an endless source. In my first point, I referenced the technical cost of an L1 revive being around 13 units if you strictly bought full energy refills to use for farming. This is debatably a great price, as it gets you half of the health, but also bumps your character from KOed to playable. I would have initially guessed the price to be somewhere more like 25 units, with ~15 units being assigned to the hp and ~10 units to the commodity of being playable again.
- Why have L1 revives never been endlessly purchasable? I supposed it was so that there was a base minimum cost for all those fights that just have one combo left of health, thus costing you just a little more and making it just a little more of a challenge (? I suppose). Has Kabam ever commented on this?
Now, this may be a terrible solution, so let me hear it (as I’m sure you will) if you disagree. Revive farming is kinda unnecessary and takes time that we could be putting in to more fun content. Really, it’s a bit sad that there even has to be an autofight button, as it takes away the whole point of the game: to play the game (don’t @ me though, it was the right call to introduce it and I love it, but I digress). The big issue seems to be (and I’ll directly quote the original announcement) “This frenzied revive farming trivializes difficult content like Carina’s Challenges and Eternity of Pain because Summoners simply spam revives. For us to allow what is effectively a loophole for these challenging pieces of content, we would have to dilute rewards given from that content, and that is not something we want to do. ”
Nowhere in the statement “simply spam revives” does revive farming directly come up. The problem in “trivializing difficult content” is not that revives are available in an endless quantity (because they are) but that they are endlessly applicable in that content. If the problem is really that players can endlessly throw revives, why not limit the application of revives and not laser focus on one resourceful method of obtaining revives that does not actually solve the problem? If the problem of endlessly available revives for a price is a problem, then state it as such and this would all make more sense.
Here are my suggestions to Kabam:
1. Make L1 revives purchasable for whatever amount of units (and even for energy) that you think is appropriate, or have a direct value that you can calculate from your code that they are obtainable at now. Cut out the farming, and make it purchasable.
2. Make a more user friendly and less ridiculously muddled store section of the game. It’s wild how many options of screens there are and there must be a better way to organize it.
3. Make content that you want to be “challenging” have a limit on potions vaguely similar to AW. This could be bracketed into a specific number of revives, and a separate available number of potions, or however you want. This will not stop people from completing content, just give a direct goal for them to achieve it under and limit the actual issue of revive spamming. It would be great if this were correlated to the inventory cap, but it depends on the content. Players could still stash up revives, but when they reached their limit on the quest, they would have to start over again to make use of the rest. Payed players could still have the advantage of not having to accumulate the units/energy for revives, but it would be a challenge to all players in as much of an equal way as possible. The current fix of still allowing unitman but not revive farming just doesn’t seem reasonable at all.
4. Hire DNA to explain MCOC statistics just like Cat does art/infographics.
I really appreciate a lot of the views I’ve seen above and the community so willing to speak out when something has a big impact on their game. Big thanks to Jax and all those that have to manage the community without really being able to make the decisions yourselves.
Hopefully this was coherent. I need sleep.
"You're tempting fate."
"You're headed for a fall."
"You're skating on thin ice."
"You're playing with dynamite."
"You're taking a big risk."
"You're courting disaster."
"You're asking for trouble."
"You're driving off a cliff."
"You're on a collision course."
I hope Kabam listens to the community feedback on this one and actually communicates with the community if they achieve "compromise". @KabamJax
Something must be changed before this goes into effect.
#Thisiswhyyoudonttalkaboutfightclub
Alto
FTP players now
New revive heavy content comes out and that time no longer spent in the game results in not having the inventory to do new content and I'm not spending money on revives so I just don't do it. Again time doing newest hard content is just not spent in the game. As the spenders advance more rapidly you just lose interest in what it will take to try and keep moderately competitive and mcoc time dwindles more. Sooner or later the player base starts to thin out. New players can't advance quick enough to keep the higher players engaged and you've effectively phased out a lot of players who are already burnt out enough after years of a very demanding virtual hobby.
Without 3.2.6 farming I wouldn't have done half the EoP challenges I have, and that's about the only really engaging thing in mcoc lately that isn't just routine. It'll take a bit of time to get there but it doesn't feel like an exaggeration to say this sort of thing is the first step out the door for myself and if the two ally chats I'm part of are any indication I'm far from alone in that.
What type of logic is that?
But of course, they never considered this because the problem they provided as justification is a smokescreen for what they really want, which is to force people to spend more money to complete end-game content, including that content which was explicitly designed to require significant revives when it was released (ie Carina’s 4 star labyrinth challenges).
revive farm involves time spent in game, a lot of us value time spent, and the more time we spend on something the more committed we are to it and more likely we are to spend on other areas of the game.
Since we are so committed to it, but with this nerf of revives means we will spend less time playing this game and what will happen to that “free” time we probably will move to another game that will entice us and maybe we get engaged enough that the money we would have spent in mcoc we now spend in our new hobby that we found with the new “free” time we got.
im lucky enough to have completed Carina V3 100% and 8.2, Abyss etc, but I feel bad for those that haven’t had the chance to complete it yet as a free to play experience as i did.
To be honest, I cannot see the reasonable logic behind this decision.
Once Kabam nerfs Hercules, then what? We'll enter a golden age of pure skill and enlightened low tier champ play that someone else finds aesthetically pleasing? Or will it be next nuke champ up + a revive? A YouTuber doing an itemless speed run with Hercules doesn't mean that Hercules is too op for me to fumble around with. Whoever I use, it's going to be with a bunch of revives. I don't have the time to waste honing my skills with suboptimal champs at a game I'm not getting paid to play because some rando thinks I have it too easy and need to suffer more so I "get good".
For me, once the stack of nodes gets past a certain point of complexity, bs, and meter watching, I'm going to assess the nukability and the cheeseability and proceed with the most effective for me option I have available.