I realize this may seem like a non-constructive comment and for that I apologize ahead of time. I feel like this issue has been ignored. This post alone has been going on sice October 2018. Its almost a year later and nothing has changed. We have been told its being looked into and thats it. There are numerous vids and screenshots in this thread proving at the least there is some kind of problem. We haven't even got confirmation that this is a known issue yet. We have waited almost a year and nothing has changed. These are basic features of the champ we are talking about. Can the community please know what we can do to help get this resolved soon? Do we need to post more vids and screenshots? What will it take to get Symbiote Supreme to work like he should. We aren't asking or wanting anything more than what his description states. I know i am aggravated by this and i am sure many others are as well because it seems like we are being ignored. SS has not worked properly since last october and its documented in the thread. Now that it is the middle of August what has changed? SS is still broke and all we have heard o its being looked into and kabam is getting mixed results when testing. It they are getting mixed results then that alone is proof of a problem. Why cant this at least be mentioned as a known issue. They know something isnt right with him since theh are getting mixed results. I have tried being polite and patient about this but when a person feels like they are being ignored it can get aggravating
He’s still a really really really good champ. Regardless of the issues
Hamburgers are really, really, really good too. If it's supposed to be a steak you should say something. At this point, if they want to correct him and say "sorry our bad", I'm fine with that. He's is not and has not been as described. It's a bug. Feels terrible to be ignored for a year in this issue.
I think I'll make a quick video every month or so just to re-up each of these bugs. Here's one, and interestingly I parried and did not get the stagger when 2 stacks of the shield mode were active but got the stagger when only 1 stack was active. However, other times (see my first video above) the number of stacks doesn't matter. Just tossing info out here.
Just as a community service, the summoners shown below are useful for duel testing SymSup right now.
I continue to have issues with KG against SymSup taking huge damage at the fight outset (as I should), but my SymSup fails to deal damage to the KG listed below when the AI plays it.
Likewise, SymSup refuses to nullify Venom’s buffs at the outset and doesn’t deal damage. That hasn’t changed a bit.
Happy to share more shots/clips if that will help move things along. As an initial matter, it seems like what is coded for buffs that proc at “start of the fight” is not only different between champs, but also different depending on whether the AI or the Summoner is playing.
Does the game team plan on meaningfully engaging on this?
Hey there @becauseicant, sorry to hear about that. Would you happen to have any footage of Null's Shadow not applying a Stagger with a well-timed block or the issues you described with his SP3? If not, would you be able to let us know any specific game modes this has happened in or opponents you can remember this happening against?
Thanks for looking into this. This issue happened to me again today.
ROL against Winter Solder. I was in Null's Shadow and multiple parries did not apply a Stagger. Sometimes a stagger was applied, but not on every parry.
I wonder if anyone believes SS would be too OP if he staggered on every parry in Null mode. I don't think he would, but I know that the amount of staggers in that node would roughly double. Anyone have any thoughts?
I wonder if anyone believes SS would be too OP if he staggered on every parry in Null mode. I don't think he would, but I know that the amount of staggers in that node would roughly double. Anyone have any thoughts?
I have little doubt this is part of the reason on the slow response time to fix it. Right up there with Domino’s L2 crit bleed, I’m sure they will end up rewording the champ.
If that is the case they should let us know and change the wording and accept the backlash they will get. We shouldnt have to wait a year for this to still be an issue.
While the Null’s Shadow issue is concerning, I’m convinced that something about the coding at the fight outset is a big part of the problem. Here are duels done today.
Here’s more below:
1. My Voodoo against AI SymSup (works)
2. My SymSup against AI Voodoo (doesn’t)
3. My SymSup against AI Corvus (works)
4. My KG against AI SymSup (works)
5. My SymSup against AI KG (doesn’t)
Why the different treatment among these scenarios—especially with common champs?
As a follow up, the operation of the staggers appears to be off across all the above fights.
Where there is only one buff to nullify at the outset, SymSup starts with zero Genetic Potential, which is needed to deal energy damage. So a solo buff shouldn’t allow for damage at fight start, but should increase Genetic Potential to 75.
Multiple buff champs at the outset should result in an increase in Genetic Potential to 100 and damage dealt based on any buff after the first one nullified.
That’s how I read it anyway. Happy to hear other interpretations.
@drzola out of curiosity, have you been testing against the Venom in 4.3.6? I just did, and he did something weird. First frame, he gains the quickest single armor up, which is immediately nullified, then he instantly procs and physical resist and then another shield, then another.
Another problem: I run mystic dispersion at 4/5. You'll see my SS gained power from his having entered Cython's Cunning, but none from the MD.
As I read Venom's abilities, he starts the fight with one buff due to his regular abilities, or two buffs at the start with a chance to start the fight with three if duped. So whatever he starts with, 2 or 3 buffs, should all get nullified by SS. However, it appears Venom is gaining the original buff contemplated by his normal ability, but any additional buffs he should gain simultaneously from his sig ability is being added split seconds after the first, so SS's nullify doesn't catch the other two.
"To start the fight" seems pretty clear to me, that these three buffs are simultaneous at the start of the fight.
@drzola out of curiosity, have you been testing against the Venom in 4.3.6? I just did, and he did something weird. First frame, he gains the quickest single armor up, which is immediately nullified, then he instantly procs and physical resist and then another shield, then another.
Another problem: I run mystic dispersion at 4/5. You'll see my SS gained power from his having entered Cython's Cunning, but none from the MD.
This gets back to my earlier question: does MD work correctly with SymSup?
I think it seems to be working during the fight, although I need more testing to confirm that (I so far only ran a full fight against ROL Juggs and it worked as expected). But it doesn't work at the beginning of the fight, or at least not all the time.
So when I attack with Venom into a SS, Venom's buffs don't happen until later in the fight, just before I parry SS. So nothing gets nullified because AI SS's Cython's Cunning is already active, I guess. It's wrong coding, clearly, and is tied to when the champ, different for attackers vs. defenders, get their start-of-fight buffs applied. But it's not consistent, so it's clearly also champ specific. It's just inconsistent coding.
@MetaphorUranium I hope it isn’t one of those “depends on what the meaning of ‘start’ is”—as we’ve noted before on this thread, the operations you and others have described is even at odds with how the “developers” intended for him to work.
I’ve messaged someone to take a look at this thread and provide some kind of response. Here’s to hoping we get one that starts the dialogue on SymSup.
Ah, yes, the old word games. A lawyer must have drafted the original word game argument, the "always" (Corvus) vs. "never" (Ant-Man) debate. This really seems different, though.
Both champs have something that happens "to start the fight." SS's wording clearly takes that into account, by saying that he begins in a passive Cthon mode and "removes whatever Buffs you have on you right at the start of the fight dealing damage."
So what should happen is everybody's "start of fight" actions should occur simultaneously. I mean, how does it make sense otherwise? Then, everything entering the battlefield at the same time "sees" everything else entering and reactions to it occur at once.
Think Magic the Gathering. When two creatures enter the battlefield simultaneously, they see each other (and themselves, if it matters) and can trigger abilities in reaction to the other (like Spellstutter Sprite).
Clearly, the coding can do simultaneous (like BB's multiple buffs happening all at once), so this should not be difficult to code properly.
The game team is currently still looking into these. Once we have more information to share, we'll update everyone here.
July 30th was the last mod presence in this discussion. @Kabam Zibiit can you verify one thing at least. Stagger via parry. Is it increased BY 100% or TO 100%? This should be easy to verify and give a solid response too. If it’s a simple wording issue I am sure some of us can live with that. But if it is supposed to be TO 100% then we have shown proof enough to get at least that moved to “know”
Any kind of update would be greatly appreciated. I miss using my symbiote supreme. I stopped using him because i dont know what to expect in the matches. I would love to see him fixed or the wording changed so we have an idea of what to expect in a match. Thanks for your time.
Thanks for your post @Liss_Bliss_ . it drives me crazy that it appears like kabam is ignoring this problem. Just some updates that somethinf is happening to try and resolve this problem would go a long way. It shouldnt take 10 months to get this moved to a known issue.
I dont know if Kabam realizes the optics of the situation here. I want to share my opinion to see if others feel the same. This thread has been going on for almost a year. Some of the merged threads started in October 2018. I know i am getting frustrated with the slow or lack of feedback on this issue. Kabam has stated they are investigating and getting mixed results. That to me means there is a problem of some sort needing adressed. I dont understand why this hasnt been moved to a known issue so ppl are aware of it. Everyday more ppl pull this champ only to learn several of his basic mechanics arent working properly after they have wasted resources ranking him up. If it was recognized as a known issue ppl would be aware of the situation. Also when some posts that appear to have nothing wrong with them get removed it shows me that kabam is at least paying attention to the thread. This is also aggravating because we know its being followed but awe arent receiving any updates. This can get very frustrating and annoying. It feels like this issue is purposefully being ignored. I'm hoping that's not the case but its how it looks to players like me. This post has been constructive and giving my opinion on a issue in the game so i hope it doesn't get removed for any reason making me feel even more ignored. A few updates would go a long way in showing kabam cares about our feedback and opinions. All we all want is the game to be working as described. Transparency and feedback go a long way in showing that our concerns are being looked looked at. 10 months is a long time to wait for a champ to work properly.
Here is a constructive post with constructive feedback and constructive information.
In this video I break down a few issues, in this post I will offer some constructive thoughts to the matter.
*Information* Timestamp 00:00-00:08 We see the fight start. Now with SS you have a 100% chance "at the start of the fight to enter Chthon's Cunning. We see this happen. With entering this phase you also have a 100% chance to nullify all buffs the opponent has. We don't see this happen.
*Constructive thoughts* We have seen videos where when we are fighting a SS our buffs DO get nullified. I wonder in we can get confirmation on something. That is this. When "start of the fight" happens do we have simultaneous activations on both sides of the screen? Meaning does the player and the AI have their "start of the fight" activations happen at the same time? Or back to back? Because what it seems, to me at least after watching videos and viewing pictures of players being nullified, it seems to happen in a back to back order. That is why we see the AI controlled SS nullifying our buffs. This also isn't consistent. There is video proof of no side getting the nullify.
*Information* Timestamp 00:31-00:57 We see me accomplish 4 parries. Because a parry is classified as a well time black and the CURRENT wording of Null's Shadow reads "15% chance to place a stagger passive on the opponent lasting 10 seconds each time we are stuck or block the opponent. Well timed block increase the chance TO 100%" We can surmise that those 4 parries should have resulted in 4 staggers. But in the video we see 2 staggers via a parry and 1 from his sig ability.
*Constrictive thoughts* This is where communication is paramount. We have asked numerous times in previous posts in this thread to get clarification to Null's Shadow. This bug can be ruled out today with simple communication. Basic math shows 15% increased BY 100% to be a 30% chance to apply stagger. And from video evidence we can get behind this. But basic math also says that 15% increased TO 100% would result in, well 100%, meaning each parry should stagger. Now myself I would be fine if Null's Shadow is working correctly but the wording is wrong. And again from viewing numerous videos, it stands to reason that it is a simple case of wording.
*Constructive feedback* This is a forum for back and forth between the player base and the Kabam developers via a middle man, AKA forum moderators. But the feeling we are getting is that these issues with SS are being ignored. When we go 8+ months talking about a simple wording issue that is unacceptable. We were told we would have transparency and open lines of communications. But lately we have seen the opposite. We just want our issues and bugs acknowledged. Not a "we are looking into it" but a proper acknowledgement of these issues moved to the known list.
*This post was constructed with no malicious intent but to be used as a voice with up to date footage displaying and explaining that the issues are still present as of 8/22/2019.*
We wanted to give an update on some of the issues raised here.
In the next game update we’ll be updating the description of Null’s Shadow to clarify that well-timed Blocks trigger Stagger with a 50% chance. Despite the error in the description, this is the percentage chance that is intended for Symbiote Supreme.
After many back and forth conversations and tests, we had to make the decision to keep it as it is now, which is 50%. Any higher percentage would make Symbiote Supreme much more powerful than he already is in this area, which is not something that this Champion needs. We apologize for the confusion caused by this description error.
With relation to Nullify not dealing damage at the beginning of a fight, this an issue that the team is still investigating to work toward a resolution. We have been able to reproduce it, but the solution is a complicated one with many knock-ons to other Abilities. While we are looking at this, it is not something that will be resolved in the next update. We appreciate your patience with relation to this issue.
@Kabam Miike Can you please also make the team aware of the issue with parrying after his second medium attack? The animation or recovery frames on his second medium attack makes the parry window extremely small compared to other champions in the game. After years of playing this game players have learned the rhythm and timing for when to parry very well so I can say confidently that something is off with his last attack.
We wanted to give an update on some of the issues raised here.
In the next game update we’ll be updating the description of Null’s Shadow to clarify that well-timed Blocks trigger Stagger with a 50% chance. Despite the error in the description, this is the percentage chance that is intended for Symbiote Supreme.
After many back and forth conversations and tests, we had to make the decision to keep it as it is now, which is 50%. Any higher percentage would make Symbiote Supreme much more powerful than he already is in this area, which is not something that this Champion needs. We apologize for the confusion caused by this description error.
First of all thank you, for the response to things we have been experiencing. We appreciate the post, and it goes a long way, for me at least, I’m showing our issues are finally going to be addressed.
Secondly, in reference to Null’s shadow, this actually plays in our favor, especially if we go off the wording currently. An extra 20% increase to place one is actually pretty amazing. I can see why 100% would be overkill as we could just parry for the entire phase.
This response was what we were wanting about Null’s Shadow, a clarification on the description itself as that would clear up every issue and either satisfy the SS player base because we would have then found out if it was a bug or not. Communication, is all, we wanted. And then go from there.
With relation to Nullify not dealing damage at the beginning of a fight, this an issue that the team is still investigating to work toward a resolution. We have been able to reproduce it, but the solution is a complicated one with many knock-ons to other Abilities. While we are looking at this, it is not something that will be resolved in the next update. We appreciate your patience with relation to this issue.
As long as it’s actively being looked into we can be patient. This is the first time we have seen a post detailing the steps and acknowledging these issues. So that has gone a long way. But if it takes another year, I may just have to sell my Cyclops champs, despite how effective they are, LOL.
Again thank you for letting us all know more about these issues.
We wanted to give an update on some of the issues raised here.
In the next game update we’ll be updating the description of Null’s Shadow to clarify that well-timed Blocks trigger Stagger with a 50% chance. Despite the error in the description, this is the percentage chance that is intended for Symbiote Supreme.
After many back and forth conversations and tests, we had to make the decision to keep it as it is now, which is 50%. Any higher percentage would make Symbiote Supreme much more powerful than he already is in this area, which is not something that this Champion needs. We apologize for the confusion caused by this description error.
With relation to Nullify not dealing damage at the beginning of a fight, this an issue that the team is still investigating to work toward a resolution. We have been able to reproduce it, but the solution is a complicated one with many knock-ons to other Abilities. While we are looking at this, it is not something that will be resolved in the next update. We appreciate your patience with relation to this is
Well... they nerfed symbiote supreme
@humzah217 Actually they haven’t. If he was never supposed to have a 100% chance to apply, and from video footage he wasn’t getting that, then this is actually a buff to his current wording.
We have had thoughts that TO was supposed to be BY that would have made it 30%. But now since it’s going to be 50% that’s an increase.
So I ask you. If NOTHING is changing to the champion but the wording, How is that a nerf?
@Kabam Miike thank you for the update. I am very happy that we got substantive information.
Not sure how I feel about the result—that will take some time playing and working it all out—but this does constitute progress, even if it took more than a few warnings to get here.
If you need testing on the remaining fixes, I’m happy to help out if at all possible. Obviously, there are quite a few of us who care about what happens to this champ, so it shouldn’t be hard to find volunteers.
I would ask, however, that any solutions going forward stick very closely to the official SymSup description from last year and the imposing champ we recall fighting in his EQ.
Comments
I continue to have issues with KG against SymSup taking huge damage at the fight outset (as I should), but my SymSup fails to deal damage to the KG listed below when the AI plays it.
Likewise, SymSup refuses to nullify Venom’s buffs at the outset and doesn’t deal damage. That hasn’t changed a bit.
Happy to share more shots/clips if that will help move things along. As an initial matter, it seems like what is coded for buffs that proc at “start of the fight” is not only different between champs, but also different depending on whether the AI or the Summoner is playing.
Does the game team plan on meaningfully engaging on this?
Dr. Zola
ROL against Winter Solder. I was in Null's Shadow and multiple parries did not apply a Stagger. Sometimes a stagger was applied, but not on every parry.
Here’s more below:
1. My Voodoo against AI SymSup (works)
2. My SymSup against AI Voodoo (doesn’t)
3. My SymSup against AI Corvus (works)
4. My KG against AI SymSup (works)
5. My SymSup against AI KG (doesn’t)
Why the different treatment among these scenarios—especially with common champs?
Dr. Zola
Where there is only one buff to nullify at the outset, SymSup starts with zero Genetic Potential, which is needed to deal energy damage.
So a solo buff shouldn’t allow for damage at fight start, but should increase Genetic Potential to 75.
Multiple buff champs at the outset should result in an increase in Genetic Potential to 100 and damage dealt based on any buff after the first one nullified.
That’s how I read it anyway. Happy to hear other interpretations.
Dr. Zola
Another problem: I run mystic dispersion at 4/5. You'll see my SS gained power from his having entered Cython's Cunning, but none from the MD.
"To start the fight" seems pretty clear to me, that these three buffs are simultaneous at the start of the fight.
Dr. Zola
I’ve messaged someone to take a look at this thread and provide some kind of response. Here’s to hoping we get one that starts the dialogue on SymSup.
Dr. Zola
Both champs have something that happens "to start the fight." SS's wording clearly takes that into account, by saying that he begins in a passive Cthon mode and "removes whatever Buffs you have on you right at the start of the fight dealing damage."
So what should happen is everybody's "start of fight" actions should occur simultaneously. I mean, how does it make sense otherwise? Then, everything entering the battlefield at the same time "sees" everything else entering and reactions to it occur at once.
Think Magic the Gathering. When two creatures enter the battlefield simultaneously, they see each other (and themselves, if it matters) and can trigger abilities in reaction to the other (like Spellstutter Sprite).
Clearly, the coding can do simultaneous (like BB's multiple buffs happening all at once), so this should not be difficult to code properly.
Thanks for your post @Liss_Bliss_ . it drives me crazy that it appears like kabam is ignoring this problem. Just some updates that somethinf is happening to try and resolve this problem would go a long way. It shouldnt take 10 months to get this moved to a known issue.
Here is a constructive post with constructive feedback and constructive information.
In this video I break down a few issues, in this post I will offer some constructive thoughts to the matter.
*Information*
Timestamp 00:00-00:08 We see the fight start. Now with SS you have a 100% chance "at the start of the fight to enter Chthon's Cunning. We see this happen. With entering this phase you also have a 100% chance to nullify all buffs the opponent has. We don't see this happen.
*Constructive thoughts*
We have seen videos where when we are fighting a SS our buffs DO get nullified. I wonder in we can get confirmation on something. That is this. When "start of the fight" happens do we have simultaneous activations on both sides of the screen? Meaning does the player and the AI have their "start of the fight" activations happen at the same time? Or back to back? Because what it seems, to me at least after watching videos and viewing pictures of players being nullified, it seems to happen in a back to back order. That is why we see the AI controlled SS nullifying our buffs. This also isn't consistent. There is video proof of no side getting the nullify.
*Information*
Timestamp 00:31-00:57 We see me accomplish 4 parries. Because a parry is classified as a well time black and the CURRENT wording of Null's Shadow reads "15% chance to place a stagger passive on the opponent lasting 10 seconds each time we are stuck or block the opponent. Well timed block increase the chance TO 100%" We can surmise that those 4 parries should have resulted in 4 staggers. But in the video we see 2 staggers via a parry and 1 from his sig ability.
*Constrictive thoughts*
This is where communication is paramount. We have asked numerous times in previous posts in this thread to get clarification to Null's Shadow. This bug can be ruled out today with simple communication. Basic math shows 15% increased BY 100% to be a 30% chance to apply stagger. And from video evidence we can get behind this. But basic math also says that 15% increased TO 100% would result in, well 100%, meaning each parry should stagger. Now myself I would be fine if Null's Shadow is working correctly but the wording is wrong. And again from viewing numerous videos, it stands to reason that it is a simple case of wording.
*Constructive feedback*
This is a forum for back and forth between the player base and the Kabam developers via a middle man, AKA forum moderators. But the feeling we are getting is that these issues with SS are being ignored. When we go 8+ months talking about a simple wording issue that is unacceptable. We were told we would have transparency and open lines of communications. But lately we have seen the opposite. We just want our issues and bugs acknowledged. Not a "we are looking into it" but a proper acknowledgement of these issues moved to the known list.
*This post was constructed with no malicious intent but to be used as a voice with up to date footage displaying and explaining that the issues are still present as of 8/22/2019.*
We wanted to give an update on some of the issues raised here.
In the next game update we’ll be updating the description of Null’s Shadow to clarify that well-timed Blocks trigger Stagger with a 50% chance. Despite the error in the description, this is the percentage chance that is intended for Symbiote Supreme.
After many back and forth conversations and tests, we had to make the decision to keep it as it is now, which is 50%. Any higher percentage would make Symbiote Supreme much more powerful than he already is in this area, which is not something that this Champion needs. We apologize for the confusion caused by this description error.
With relation to Nullify not dealing damage at the beginning of a fight, this an issue that the team is still investigating to work toward a resolution. We have been able to reproduce it, but the solution is a complicated one with many knock-ons to other Abilities. While we are looking at this, it is not something that will be resolved in the next update. We appreciate your patience with relation to this issue.
First of all thank you, for the response to things we have been experiencing. We appreciate the post, and it goes a long way, for me at least, I’m showing our issues are finally going to be addressed.
Secondly, in reference to Null’s shadow, this actually plays in our favor, especially if we go off the wording currently. An extra 20% increase to place one is actually pretty amazing. I can see why 100% would be overkill as we could just parry for the entire phase.
This response was what we were wanting about Null’s Shadow, a clarification on the description itself as that would clear up every issue and either satisfy the SS player base because we would have then found out if it was a bug or not. Communication, is all, we wanted. And then go from there. As long as it’s actively being looked into we can be patient. This is the first time we have seen a post detailing the steps and acknowledging these issues. So that has gone a long way. But if it takes another year, I may just have to sell my Cyclops champs, despite how effective they are, LOL.
Again thank you for letting us all know more about these issues.
@humzah217 Actually they haven’t. If he was never supposed to have a 100% chance to apply, and from video footage he wasn’t getting that, then this is actually a buff to his current wording.
We have had thoughts that TO was supposed to be BY that would have made it 30%. But now since it’s going to be 50% that’s an increase.
So I ask you. If NOTHING is changing to the champion but the wording, How is that a nerf?
Not sure how I feel about the result—that will take some time playing and working it all out—but this does constitute progress, even if it took more than a few warnings to get here.
If you need testing on the remaining fixes, I’m happy to help out if at all possible. Obviously, there are quite a few of us who care about what happens to this champ, so it shouldn’t be hard to find volunteers.
I would ask, however, that any solutions going forward stick very closely to the official SymSup description from last year and the imposing champ we recall fighting in his EQ.
Thanks,
Dr. Zola