Just going to leave this here - close war where we actually had the diversity edge by 1 but lost the war because our opponents were about 70k stronger in defence than us. We even had 5 more kills than them but it doesn't matter. I can't complain because we have won by doing the same thing also a few times but those wins seem so hollow. There is no satisfaction anymore for me even while winning.
Has anyone been trying to exchange information on line or something for defender rating and diversity? I feel like this would benefit both sides as one side would know they have the win guaranteed if they 100% the map and the other alliance would know they can stop at 85% and still get the same rewards.
since Defender Rating is the only score different in top tier wars, yes, I am aware of alliances touching base at start of attack to compare defender rating so they know from the outset which alliance will win, no matter how hard both alliances fight and clear all maps 100%.
such awful game design
#BringBackDefenderKillPoints
Thanks, I am going for to start asking the opponent for an information exchange right when attack phase starts from now on. I can't believe this is war now
Has anyone considered making a line chatroom for the top/middle/low tier alliances to compare defender ratings/diversity so that we don’t have to waste our time clearing through wars?
great job everyone now you got kabam to make wars even harder which will not only result in diversity still being the deciding factor as well as it costing more to win. i mean without defender kills it really sucks that the maps going to be harder now.
Think about it. It's not an accident. The whole goal was to increase revenue via AW.
Our goals were to make Alliance Wars more diverse, engaging and fun. We've said this before. I know you're going to believe whatever you want to believe, but I promise you, that was not at all our goal here.
When we removed Defender kills, it's because we didn't want players to simply give up after a fight. Not playing should never be the optimal strategy. We wanted everybody to fight for the very last node. Stuck because your Alliance mate couldn't take down the link to the node in front of you? Well fight it anyways! See if you can take it down!
We've said before that getting this mode to where we want it to be will be an iterative process. So if there are more iterations that need to be made, we will. But first, we've got to get through a few days of War until we can see how this is working out.
We stopped after we died cause most of us are broke and can't afford to keep going.
You know, I thought of something other than defender kills that could make War a game of skill again. You can keep the current set up even if you do it.
Remove items.
There, now attacking has a whole different strategy. Consider it as an option please.
In actuality, diversity does not really increase the champs an individual can use. Everything is going to be coordinated by who has the highest pi version of whatever unique champ needs to be placed. In effect this has locked me in to the 5 same defenders every war.
I can no longer try to throw a curveball by placing an unexpected champ somewhere. The spreadsheet dictates my every defensive option. I am told who to place in order to not lose the war for the alliance and that is it.
I have no options, other than to try to out pi an existing defensive champ or cost the alliance points and the win.
So how am I given more options for whom to place and where? I'm not. I'm told what to place, and the node is basically irrelevant.
This is not true diversity, it's affirmative action, forcing us to employ lesser qualified candidates in order to meet a quota.
Using "defender rating" in a significant manner is also a poor idea. I know it was in AW since its inception, but the wars it actually affected were minimal. Using suicide masteries (which actually makes defenders worse) or boosts when placing should have no bearing on a war. Defender rating should be prestige based, cut the tricks out of war.
I also still have questions regarding the detect masteries. What does Kabam intend to do about these masteries that no longer have in-game value?
I agree with most other sentiments regarding "increased difficulty" not being enough and the need for defender kills even with reduced points for diversity. Not dying is the single most important skill in this game, it should have value. The previous war iteration had a system where the attacking team was net positive as long as you died at a node 4 or less times. Change the ratio to higher if needed, but it needs to exist or there's no point in placing "good" defenders at high tiers.
If you want to promote diversity, and use it as a tie breaker, why not award more points to players who win fights with unique champs in attack, not just defence? If someone can clear their line using the worst champs in the game, then they should be more highly rewarded for their skill.
This will make AW a more skill based game mode, will increase diversity, and make people a little less salty about pulling a garbage champ from a 5* crystal in the future (even if it's just a little bit).
Without defender kills, defender rating is still going to be the deciding factor.
Shared this theory in another Thread. Rather than retype it, I'm just going to post a screenshot.
That's not a theory. That is an observation. If the alliances with higher rated defenders win more wars than they lose, the tier sorting algorithm will sort them into higher tiers, and by definition everyone else into lower tiers, with alliance defender rating acting indirectly by affecting the win/loss record. That's a given.
The problem is, there's no good justification for making that change. If the devs arbitrarily started giving additional points to alliances with defensive champions that were taller, you could say the exact same thing. The height of the champions was "balancing" the alliances into a new configuration, and eventually the taller alliances would be matched up with other taller alliances and their scoring would become more even. Growth would come from alliances growing their rosters, acquiring an increasingly large percentage of the tall champions.
The fact that we could make that observation doesn't make it a good thing to happen.
It's actually a good thing from my perspective. Advancing in War Tiers is a reflection in part, of advancing in the game. I don't want to argue too much about it. That's my opinion.
It's still a theory because we haven't seen enough results to call it an observation. That will be seen over time.
Couldn't disagree more. You will advance in the game over time whether or not you are actually good at it. I know people with incredible rosters who aren't actually good at the game. War, alliance vs. alliance, should not be about which alliance has had better luck with crystals or who has played longer, it should be about which alliance is better. No interest in the kind of war you seem to be advocating.
Skill has very little to do with what you're talking about. It's RNG. Roll the right Champs, invest in them, fill the BGs, and watch the kills accumulate. That was exactly what your are describing, luck through the Crystals.
I'm sorry, but the removal of Defender Kills and Diversity are beneficial in my mind and we will have to disagree.
great job everyone now you got kabam to make wars even harder which will not only result in diversity still being the deciding factor as well as it costing more to win. i mean without defender kills it really sucks that the maps going to be harder now.
Think about it. It's not an accident. The whole goal was to increase revenue via AW.
Our goals were to make more money.
When we removed Defender kills, it's because we didn't want players to simply give up after a fight. We want them to use items. To buy units. To spend spend spend! Not playing should never be the optimal strategy. We wanted everybody to fight for the very last node. Stuck because your Alliance mate couldn't take down the link to the node in front of you? Well fight it anyways! See if you can take it down! USE ALL 15 ITEMS! AND MAKE THEM BIG ONES!!
We stopped after we died cause most of us are broke and can't afford to keep going.
In actuality, diversity does not really increase the champs an individual can use. Everything is going to be coordinated by who has the highest pi version of whatever unique champ needs to be placed. In effect this has locked me in to the 5 same defenders every war.
I can no longer try to throw a curveball by placing an unexpected champ somewhere. The spreadsheet dictates my every defensive option. I am told who to place in order to not lose the war for the alliance and that is it.
I have no options, other than to try to out pi an existing defensive champ or cost the alliance points and the win.
So how am I given more options for whom to place and where? I'm not. I'm told what to place, and the node is basically irrelevant.
This is not true diversity, it's affirmative action, forcing us to employ lesser qualified candidates in order to meet a quota.
Kabam is just hang diversity as a cover to eliminate defender kills points. We all know this. May as well close the discussion really as it isn’t gonna change. They can’t seem to admit when they made a mistake as kill points should always be the deciding factor
This whole mess came about because Kabam decided that they were going to strategically use a lack of transparency to increase revenues.
In this case, they don't want teams to know when they've lost a war before it's over so that they can conserve inventory (read: money) in cases where it isn't a worthwhile spend. Nobody actually ever had a problem losing to a stronger team.
With all the thing players wanted to see done, Kabam fixed a "problem" that didn't exist. Now there's 9 necessary and more difficult paths, AWs are hardly even a team event anymore. So what if you can teleport across paths, swapping lines with someone else is hardly a help. Teams with a mix of abilities will likely have to boot their weaker members if they want to stay competitive in AWs.
What people wanted was Kabam to put some effort into preventing unbalanced matches, not this. Defender Diversity is a completely arbitrary measure that has absolutely nothing to do with the strength of attackers and defenders, which should be the only things deciding a game mode that's called a "war".
Admit the mistake and give it up Kabam.
Kabam is acting like a wife/girlfriend theyre refusing to admit they’re wrong even when everyone knows they are... in the words of Kevin heart “are you done yet?”
I love how Kabam will try and tell *me* what I'll enjoy in playing this game. And then when I, and others, say it's NOT fun, they dig their heels and say it *IS* fun, I'm just wrong.
I don't know how else to put it. Sounding like a broken record...
The 15.0 War changes... THIS. ISN'T. FUN. Your proposed changes won't change anything in the higher tiers. The people who were blasting through like a hot knife thru butter, will continue to do so. It will *STILL* be a "Game of Rosters" rather than a war where the better-skilled team prevails. "Wallet Wars", there's a better name for it...
There is always a strategy. I don't need to assert my effectiveness. It's not about me. I can say I'm quite experiwnced at strategizing Wins in many scenarios and leave it at that because I'm not really here to brag. What I'm saying is regardless of the strategy used, it does not have to include Points for Defender Kills. The real argument is we can no longer place a Defense that KOs the opponent into a Loss. There are other forms of strategy involved. I've been running Wars since the new system has been implemented. Our last Win took some effort and planning. It's not as monotone as people are claiming. The Nodes were simplistic, yes. There is still strategy involved.
War is engagement in battle between two or more sides. When you eliminate the ability for one side to engage, it is no longer called War. It's called Defense. People mention strategy, but there's really very little strategy involved. "Okay, boys. Do we stop trying and take a Loss, or keep trying and take a Loss?". There is very little strategy for the winning side either. Just place the "Top Tier Champs" in drones and watch the enemy scramble and lose.
There is always a strategy. I don't need to assert my effectiveness. It's not about me. I can say I'm quite experiwnced at strategizing Wins in many scenarios and leave it at that because I'm not really here to brag. What I'm saying is regardless of the strategy used, it does not have to include Points for Defender Kills. The real argument is we can no longer place a Defense that KOs the opponent into a Loss. There are other forms of strategy involved. I've been running Wars since the new system has been implemented. Our last Win took some effort and planning. It's not as monotone as people are claiming. The Nodes were simplistic, yes. There is still strategy involved.
War is engagement in battle between two or more sides. When you eliminate the ability for one side to engage, it is no longer called War. It's called Defense. People mention strategy, but there's really very little strategy involved. "Okay, boys. Do we stop trying and take a Loss, or keep trying and take a Loss?". There is very little strategy for the winning side either. Just place the "Top Tier Champs" in drones and watch the enemy scramble and lose.
When talking about strategy in terms of Defender Kills, yes. The most popular Champs are placed because they garner the most Kills. Kills accumulate and force the opponent to try themselves to death. Two different references.
If you want to distinguish winners and losers by exploration, you should make exploration less of a binary choice -- it should be plausible to kill the boss with substantially less than 99% exploration. There is a strong incentive for each player to clear their lane to the miniboss -- if they don't, then the boss will be very hard to kill ... this means alliances are likely to either clear the maps and kill the bosses (so diversity and DR decide the match) or fail both. (Right now only one or two center lines is really optional, and they're easy anyway... so if you can kill the minibosses, you might as well kill everything.)
Coincidentally, I had a crazy thought yesterday. What if the opposite was true? We reward alliances for exploration. Why? Because we judge the alliance that can kill more defenders as being better than the one that can kill less defenders.
Suppose I were to flip that. Consider the short path Venom. There's an easy way to kill him: explore the whole map and take out the buff nodes. And there's a hard way: go straight at him. Suppose we were to make a map with ten short paths that led to the boss in the middle. And each path had a boss buff. The boss is worth 20000 points at the start. But each path you complete reduces the value of the boss by 1000 points. So an alliance that kills the boss after only taking out five paths gets 15000 points while an alliance that kills the boss after only taking out two paths gets 18000 points. A single player that runs straight to the boss and kills it gets 19000 points.
But what about the rest of the players? We still give points for kills so the other players can still score points by completing their paths. But the order of completion matters. The earlier you kill the boss - while it is buffed harder - the more points you get.
To add a layer of strategy and make things more interesting we could make the AW map kind of look like a smaller AQ map. There are ten paths with two fights - a "normal" fight and then the buffing node fight - and then a miniboss. The more buffs the miniboss has when you kill it, the more points you can get. And because the paths are short, it is possible to get to the boss and kill it without anyone else having to wait long before starting their paths.
Repeat that three times. Paths, miniboss, paths, miniboss, paths, miniboss, paths, final boss. If we also actually told both sides what the current score was (we currently don't) then we add an element of strategy. If you clear all the paths and kill the first miniboss and then you see the other side get more points, you know you have to catch up. You can take more risks and try to down the second miniboss while more nodes are up to gain ground. Each side can jockey for the lead by taking increasingly higher risks and trying to kill the boss with more nodes up, right up to the final boss.
Instead of rewarding players for 100% sweeping the map and then killing the boss, we can reward players for trying their best to extract the most points per stage by fighting the boss with the most nodes up they can still deal with.
Meanwhile, how do we encourage the other side to keep fighting no matter what? We change the AW rewards so that the rewards you get - whether you are getting the winning side rewards or the losing side rewards - scale with the stage you reach. You get a certain amount of rewards for each miniboss you kill and then full rewards for killing the final boss. Notice that even a totally outmatched alliance can still try to at least reach the end and get full rewards by coordinating their efforts and eliminating every single buff node before taking on the boss nodes. They will in effect have a much easier fight than their opponent, they will still lose, but they still have something to play for.
There's also some additional strategy on the defense side. If you know which buffs are on which paths, that could influence your strategy for prioritizing certain paths for stronger defenses. But we can do even better and play some games with the nodes. Suppose one of the nodes buffs the boss with energy gain. That's a valuable buff in many cases - like placing Magik on the boss node - so you would want to defend it strongly. But if there is still some diversity penalty in place (I'm setting that aside for now) do you place strong but non-unique defenders on the buff node to protect it, forfeiting the points, or do you place a unique defender there and let the other side kill it, knowing that you've just gained points because they are killing it before taking down the boss.
In fact, do you actually your strongest champs on the boss nodes or on the buff nodes? After all, if the other side can't kill the buff nodes the boss nodes is all the stronger, but if they can kill all the buff nodes it won't matter as much what you place on the boss node. The meta gaming is more complex than the current AW and I think it matters which tier you are in. Some tiers will try to maximize boss scores by bypassing (temporarily) many buff nodes (so their strength doesn't matter as much), some will try to weaken bosses enough to guarantee 100% completion.
Note: there are energy balancing and timezone coordination issues to work out with this idea logistically. I'm just presenting the combat half of the idea. And there's a lot of details that would need to be worked out. But I think this does address two very difficult problems simultaneously: how to give weaker alliances a reason to fight to the end, and how to give stronger alliances a way to separate themselves by skill (and roster strength).
War is engagement in battle between two or more sides. When you eliminate the ability for one side to engage, it is no longer called War. It's called Defense. People mention strategy, but there's really very little strategy involved. "Okay, boys. Do we stop trying and take a Loss, or keep trying and take a Loss?". There is very little strategy for the winning side either. Just place the "Top Tier Champs" in drones and watch the enemy scramble and lose. Besides the penalty, whenever Diversity is a part of the equation, Defender Kills will contradict it. People will inevitably create the same problem by overpowering with Defender Kills. I'm nearly positive that given the choice, that will be the primary focus. So, there's no real way to have both as a significant aspect. Not unless the metrics for Defender Kills are so minimal that they become difficult to mount into a deciding factor, in which case THAT becomes the tiebreaker, which is the objective of Diversity. Even then, it would only be done for amusement. The reality is, Defender Kills are not necessary to make it engaging, and they're more penalty than people realize. It is not a fair experience to sacrifice making a try for it because if you try, you fail. I'm sorry. Regardless of who prefers the old way, that's not a fair situation for anyone but the ones winning.
There is always a strategy. I don't need to assert my effectiveness. It's not about me. I can say I'm quite experiwnced at strategizing Wins in many scenarios and leave it at that because I'm not really here to brag. What I'm saying is regardless of the strategy used, it does not have to include Points for Defender Kills. The real argument is we can no longer place a Defense that KOs the opponent into a Loss. There are other forms of strategy involved. I've been running Wars since the new system has been implemented. Our last Win took some effort and planning. It's not as monotone as people are claiming. The Nodes were simplistic, yes. There is still strategy involved.
War is engagement in battle between two or more sides. When you eliminate the ability for one side to engage, it is no longer called War. It's called Defense. People mention strategy, but there's really very little strategy involved. "Okay, boys. Do we stop trying and take a Loss, or keep trying and take a Loss?". There is very little strategy for the winning side either. Just place the "Top Tier Champs" in drones and watch the enemy scramble and lose.
When talking about strategy in terms of Defender Kills, yes. The most popular Champs are placed because they garner the most Kills. Kills accumulate and force the opponent to try themselves to death. Two different references.
I'm afraid @GroundedWisdom above disagrees with you. You need to take it up with him: I've quoted him and highlighted the appropriate statements in context above. That @GroundedWisdom specifically stated that there was little strategy both when placing defenders and also on the attacking side. It is the attacking side, and only the attacking side, that can say "Okay, boys. Do we stop trying and take a Loss, or keep trying and take a Loss?"
There is always a strategy. I don't need to assert my effectiveness. It's not about me. I can say I'm quite experiwnced at strategizing Wins in many scenarios and leave it at that because I'm not really here to brag. What I'm saying is regardless of the strategy used, it does not have to include Points for Defender Kills. The real argument is we can no longer place a Defense that KOs the opponent into a Loss. There are other forms of strategy involved. I've been running Wars since the new system has been implemented. Our last Win took some effort and planning. It's not as monotone as people are claiming. The Nodes were simplistic, yes. There is still strategy involved.
War is engagement in battle between two or more sides. When you eliminate the ability for one side to engage, it is no longer called War. It's called Defense. People mention strategy, but there's really very little strategy involved. "Okay, boys. Do we stop trying and take a Loss, or keep trying and take a Loss?". There is very little strategy for the winning side either. Just place the "Top Tier Champs" in drones and watch the enemy scramble and lose.
When talking about strategy in terms of Defender Kills, yes. The most popular Champs are placed because they garner the most Kills. Kills accumulate and force the opponent to try themselves to death. Two different references.
I'm not trying to be rude here, but many of the players commenting here play at high levels of AW. In AW 14.0, even the best champs that could be predicted in a certain spot on the map (outside of boss node) had become ineffective. We would plan our attack expecting to see Magik or Dorm or NC etc and if we were right, they would die quickly. Surprising the attackers (some call this strategy) with an unexpected defender in a strategic location created more issues and affected the war.
I'm sure there are wars and levels where players stop cold at a 5/50 duped dorm, but that's not the concern of the majority of players. Your perspective is your own and nobody will be able to change that, but you can at least understand that the majority of us have a different perspective and you don't really need to tell us all how that's wrong when you don't have the same experiences as we do. Perhaps this was a problem at low tiers of War, but it was not at high tiers. Personal experiences DO matter when discussing the meta of a video game.
War is engagement in battle between two or more sides. When you eliminate the ability for one side to engage, it is no longer called War. It's called Defense. People mention strategy, but there's really very little strategy involved. "Okay, boys. Do we stop trying and take a Loss, or keep trying and take a Loss?". There is very little strategy for the winning side either. Just place the "Top Tier Champs" in drones and watch the enemy scramble and lose. Besides the penalty, whenever Diversity is a part of the equation, Defender Kills will contradict it. People will inevitably create the same problem by overpowering with Defender Kills. I'm nearly positive that given the choice, that will be the primary focus. So, there's no real way to have both as a significant aspect. Not unless the metrics for Defender Kills are so minimal that they become difficult to mount into a deciding factor, in which case THAT becomes the tiebreaker, which is the objective of Diversity. Even then, it would only be done for amusement. The reality is, Defender Kills are not necessary to make it engaging, and they're more penalty than people realize. It is not a fair experience to sacrifice making a try for it because if you try, you fail. I'm sorry. Regardless of who prefers the old way, that's not a fair situation for anyone but the ones winning.
There is always a strategy. I don't need to assert my effectiveness. It's not about me. I can say I'm quite experiwnced at strategizing Wins in many scenarios and leave it at that because I'm not really here to brag. What I'm saying is regardless of the strategy used, it does not have to include Points for Defender Kills. The real argument is we can no longer place a Defense that KOs the opponent into a Loss. There are other forms of strategy involved. I've been running Wars since the new system has been implemented. Our last Win took some effort and planning. It's not as monotone as people are claiming. The Nodes were simplistic, yes. There is still strategy involved.
War is engagement in battle between two or more sides. When you eliminate the ability for one side to engage, it is no longer called War. It's called Defense. People mention strategy, but there's really very little strategy involved. "Okay, boys. Do we stop trying and take a Loss, or keep trying and take a Loss?". There is very little strategy for the winning side either. Just place the "Top Tier Champs" in drones and watch the enemy scramble and lose.
When talking about strategy in terms of Defender Kills, yes. The most popular Champs are placed because they garner the most Kills. Kills accumulate and force the opponent to try themselves to death. Two different references.
I'm afraid @GroundedWisdom above disagrees with you. You need to take it up with him: I've quoted him and highlighted the appropriate statements in context above. That @GroundedWisdom specifically stated that there was little strategy both when placing defenders and also on the attacking side. It is the attacking side, and only the attacking side, that can say "Okay, boys. Do we stop trying and take a Loss, or keep trying and take a Loss?"
You're looking for a contradiction in two totally separate conversations out of context. The argument is that Defender Kills are needed for strategy. There is not much strategy involved in setting up a roadblock where the opponent is forced to give up and lose, or keep trying and lose. There is also not much strategy in placing multiples of the same Champs who gain the most Kills. The argument of strategy comes mainly from the side that is accumulating said Wins through cornering the opposition, and it usually references the opponent and how they need to strategize. Lose or lose, is not a strategy. I support the removal of Defender Kills. I'm afraid we have different definitions of strategy. Where there is no possible outcome that can lead to a Win, strategy is irrelevant.
There is always a strategy. I don't need to assert my effectiveness. It's not about me. I can say I'm quite experiwnced at strategizing Wins in many scenarios and leave it at that because I'm not really here to brag. What I'm saying is regardless of the strategy used, it does not have to include Points for Defender Kills. The real argument is we can no longer place a Defense that KOs the opponent into a Loss. There are other forms of strategy involved. I've been running Wars since the new system has been implemented. Our last Win took some effort and planning. It's not as monotone as people are claiming. The Nodes were simplistic, yes. There is still strategy involved.
War is engagement in battle between two or more sides. When you eliminate the ability for one side to engage, it is no longer called War. It's called Defense. People mention strategy, but there's really very little strategy involved. "Okay, boys. Do we stop trying and take a Loss, or keep trying and take a Loss?". There is very little strategy for the winning side either. Just place the "Top Tier Champs" in drones and watch the enemy scramble and lose.
When talking about strategy in terms of Defender Kills, yes. The most popular Champs are placed because they garner the most Kills. Kills accumulate and force the opponent to try themselves to death. Two different references.
I'm not trying to be rude here, but many of the players commenting here play at high levels of AW. In AW 14.0, even the best champs that could be predicted in a certain spot on the map (outside of boss node) had become ineffective. We would plan our attack expecting to see Magik or Dorm or NC etc and if we were right, they would die quickly. Surprising the attackers (some call this strategy) with an unexpected defender in a strategic location created more issues and affected the war.
I'm sure there are wars and levels where players stop cold at a 5/50 duped dorm, but that's not the concern of the majority of players. Your perspective is your own and nobody will be able to change that, but you can at least understand that the majority of us have a different perspective and you don't really need to tell us all how that's wrong when you don't have the same experiences as we do. Perhaps this was a problem at low tiers of War, but it was not at high tiers. Personal experiences DO matter when discussing the meta of a video game.
Sorry, but I'm fully capable of discussing the meta of a game regardless of what Tier I'm in. I'm quite intelligent and I have the ability to understand entire systems, and not just the top, middle, or bottom.
i never once heard anybody in the history of this game prior to the changes say defender kills created an unfair situation.
in fact defender kills was one of the funnest things about war. it was always a fun talking point after a war "my juggs got 8 defender kills that war sweet!" it made war way more fun and engaging not unfair, thats just ludicrous.
We can debate endlessly, but it's not going to go anywhere. I'm for the removal of Defender Kills. It created an unfair situation, regardless of who agrees with it or not.
I disagree. This debate is going somewhere. You're incorrectly assuming my goal is to get you to change your mind. That is not my goal. I'm not here to force anyone to agree with me. My goal is to highlight the errors I perceive in your arguments and present counter-arguments that other readers will find convincing, and that goal extends to any devs that might be reading. You and I are one small set of proxies for the players that like the current system and the players that don't. I believe it is useful for the devs and other players to see how those two positions stand up under scrutiny.
The question you have to ask is do you believe you are representing the side of the players that like the system well, and do you believe it serves their interests to continue to create arguments in support of it. I'm only posting because I believe I'm representing my side reasonably well. If I thought I wasn't, I'd stop.
Everybody please remember the forum rules when posting in the forums. I have already cleaned this thread out a couple times. If you fail to do so, we're going to have to suspend your Forum Privileges.
This is not a place to call others out, and it's not a space to fight. You can always disagree with each other, but do so in a respectful manner.
Everybody please remember the forum rules when posting in the forums. I have already cleaned this thread out a couple times. If you fail to do so, we're going to have to suspend your Forum Privileges.
This is not a place to call others out, and it's not a space to fight. You can always disagree with each other, but do so in a respectful manner.
i never once heard anybody in the history of this game prior to the changes say defender kills created an unfair situation.
I can infer that there were such players. There are players that have expressed the opinion that any element of the game that grants too high of a benefit to players possessing certain champions is unfair to the players who don't have them and do not play the game in a way that allows them to build larger rosters as quickly as they would like it.
So it is logical to assume that there are players that find certain champions, in particular top ranked Magik, Iceman, etc, too difficult to fight with their rosters and thus getting killed by those champions in AW was "unfair." I'm not saying I agree, just that it is likely such players exist. It is worth noting that many players called Dave's event "unfair" because they did not possess strong power control champs, and some players called the spiderman event unfair because they did not possess strong evade-neutralizing champs (even though that wasn't even really necessary).
It is their right to want what they want just as it is our right to want what we want. It is the responsibility of the devs to arbitrate between competing players when they cannot make both groups happy simultaneously. We all prefer they side with us, of course, but we can judge objectively whether they are fairly judging between different groups across the entire game. Sometimes this side should win, sometimes that side should win. In this case, in the only head to head competitive element of the game, I think it is logical that the players that desire strong competition should win.
i never once heard anybody in the history of this game prior to the changes say defender kills created an unfair situation.
I can infer that there were such players. There are players that have expressed the opinion that any element of the game that grants too high of a benefit to players possessing certain champions is unfair to the players who don't have them and do not play the game in a way that allows them to build larger rosters as quickly as they would like it.
So it is logical to assume that there are players that find certain champions, in particular top ranked Magik, Iceman, etc, too difficult to fight with their rosters and thus getting killed by those champions in AW was "unfair." I'm not saying I agree, just that it is likely such players exist. It is worth noting that many players called Dave's event "unfair" because they did not possess strong power control champs, and some players called the spiderman event unfair because they did not possess strong evade-neutralizing champs (even though that wasn't even really necessary).
It is their right to want what they want just as it is our right to want what we want. It is the responsibility of the devs to arbitrate between competing players when they cannot make both groups happy simultaneously. We all prefer they side with us, of course, but we can judge objectively whether they are fairly judging between different groups across the entire game. Sometimes this side should win, sometimes that side should win. In this case, in the only head to head competitive element of the game, I think it is logical that the players that desire strong competition should win.
Yeah, thats true. But thats more of our daily "I want what that player has but don't want to work towards it or put in the same effort"
@DNA3000 fair enough point, but i would go out on a limb and say that those people are in the vast minority. its better to make changes based off the majority not minority. Siding with the minority makes it seem like community feedback is cherry picked by kabam, only using what ideas better cater towards there goals not whats better for the community.
Comments
Has anyone considered making a line chatroom for the top/middle/low tier alliances to compare defender ratings/diversity so that we don’t have to waste our time clearing through wars?
We stopped after we died cause most of us are broke and can't afford to keep going.
Remove items.
There, now attacking has a whole different strategy. Consider it as an option please.
I can no longer try to throw a curveball by placing an unexpected champ somewhere. The spreadsheet dictates my every defensive option. I am told who to place in order to not lose the war for the alliance and that is it.
I have no options, other than to try to out pi an existing defensive champ or cost the alliance points and the win.
So how am I given more options for whom to place and where? I'm not. I'm told what to place, and the node is basically irrelevant.
This is not true diversity, it's affirmative action, forcing us to employ lesser qualified candidates in order to meet a quota.
I also still have questions regarding the detect masteries. What does Kabam intend to do about these masteries that no longer have in-game value?
I agree with most other sentiments regarding "increased difficulty" not being enough and the need for defender kills even with reduced points for diversity. Not dying is the single most important skill in this game, it should have value. The previous war iteration had a system where the attacking team was net positive as long as you died at a node 4 or less times. Change the ratio to higher if needed, but it needs to exist or there's no point in placing "good" defenders at high tiers.
This will make AW a more skill based game mode, will increase diversity, and make people a little less salty about pulling a garbage champ from a 5* crystal in the future (even if it's just a little bit).
I'm sorry, but the removal of Defender Kills and Diversity are beneficial in my mind and we will have to disagree.
There, Miike’s Post has been translated.
This.
I don't know how else to put it. Sounding like a broken record...
The 15.0 War changes... THIS. ISN'T. FUN. Your proposed changes won't change anything in the higher tiers. The people who were blasting through like a hot knife thru butter, will continue to do so. It will *STILL* be a "Game of Rosters" rather than a war where the better-skilled team prevails. "Wallet Wars", there's a better name for it...
Brian Grant hitting the nail on the head yet again
@GroundedWisdom, meet @GroundedWisdom:
When talking about strategy in terms of Defender Kills, yes. The most popular Champs are placed because they garner the most Kills. Kills accumulate and force the opponent to try themselves to death. Two different references.
Coincidentally, I had a crazy thought yesterday. What if the opposite was true? We reward alliances for exploration. Why? Because we judge the alliance that can kill more defenders as being better than the one that can kill less defenders.
Suppose I were to flip that. Consider the short path Venom. There's an easy way to kill him: explore the whole map and take out the buff nodes. And there's a hard way: go straight at him. Suppose we were to make a map with ten short paths that led to the boss in the middle. And each path had a boss buff. The boss is worth 20000 points at the start. But each path you complete reduces the value of the boss by 1000 points. So an alliance that kills the boss after only taking out five paths gets 15000 points while an alliance that kills the boss after only taking out two paths gets 18000 points. A single player that runs straight to the boss and kills it gets 19000 points.
But what about the rest of the players? We still give points for kills so the other players can still score points by completing their paths. But the order of completion matters. The earlier you kill the boss - while it is buffed harder - the more points you get.
To add a layer of strategy and make things more interesting we could make the AW map kind of look like a smaller AQ map. There are ten paths with two fights - a "normal" fight and then the buffing node fight - and then a miniboss. The more buffs the miniboss has when you kill it, the more points you can get. And because the paths are short, it is possible to get to the boss and kill it without anyone else having to wait long before starting their paths.
Repeat that three times. Paths, miniboss, paths, miniboss, paths, miniboss, paths, final boss. If we also actually told both sides what the current score was (we currently don't) then we add an element of strategy. If you clear all the paths and kill the first miniboss and then you see the other side get more points, you know you have to catch up. You can take more risks and try to down the second miniboss while more nodes are up to gain ground. Each side can jockey for the lead by taking increasingly higher risks and trying to kill the boss with more nodes up, right up to the final boss.
Instead of rewarding players for 100% sweeping the map and then killing the boss, we can reward players for trying their best to extract the most points per stage by fighting the boss with the most nodes up they can still deal with.
Meanwhile, how do we encourage the other side to keep fighting no matter what? We change the AW rewards so that the rewards you get - whether you are getting the winning side rewards or the losing side rewards - scale with the stage you reach. You get a certain amount of rewards for each miniboss you kill and then full rewards for killing the final boss. Notice that even a totally outmatched alliance can still try to at least reach the end and get full rewards by coordinating their efforts and eliminating every single buff node before taking on the boss nodes. They will in effect have a much easier fight than their opponent, they will still lose, but they still have something to play for.
There's also some additional strategy on the defense side. If you know which buffs are on which paths, that could influence your strategy for prioritizing certain paths for stronger defenses. But we can do even better and play some games with the nodes. Suppose one of the nodes buffs the boss with energy gain. That's a valuable buff in many cases - like placing Magik on the boss node - so you would want to defend it strongly. But if there is still some diversity penalty in place (I'm setting that aside for now) do you place strong but non-unique defenders on the buff node to protect it, forfeiting the points, or do you place a unique defender there and let the other side kill it, knowing that you've just gained points because they are killing it before taking down the boss.
In fact, do you actually your strongest champs on the boss nodes or on the buff nodes? After all, if the other side can't kill the buff nodes the boss nodes is all the stronger, but if they can kill all the buff nodes it won't matter as much what you place on the boss node. The meta gaming is more complex than the current AW and I think it matters which tier you are in. Some tiers will try to maximize boss scores by bypassing (temporarily) many buff nodes (so their strength doesn't matter as much), some will try to weaken bosses enough to guarantee 100% completion.
Note: there are energy balancing and timezone coordination issues to work out with this idea logistically. I'm just presenting the combat half of the idea. And there's a lot of details that would need to be worked out. But I think this does address two very difficult problems simultaneously: how to give weaker alliances a reason to fight to the end, and how to give stronger alliances a way to separate themselves by skill (and roster strength).
I'm afraid @GroundedWisdom above disagrees with you. You need to take it up with him: I've quoted him and highlighted the appropriate statements in context above. That @GroundedWisdom specifically stated that there was little strategy both when placing defenders and also on the attacking side. It is the attacking side, and only the attacking side, that can say "Okay, boys. Do we stop trying and take a Loss, or keep trying and take a Loss?"
I'm not trying to be rude here, but many of the players commenting here play at high levels of AW. In AW 14.0, even the best champs that could be predicted in a certain spot on the map (outside of boss node) had become ineffective. We would plan our attack expecting to see Magik or Dorm or NC etc and if we were right, they would die quickly. Surprising the attackers (some call this strategy) with an unexpected defender in a strategic location created more issues and affected the war.
I'm sure there are wars and levels where players stop cold at a 5/50 duped dorm, but that's not the concern of the majority of players. Your perspective is your own and nobody will be able to change that, but you can at least understand that the majority of us have a different perspective and you don't really need to tell us all how that's wrong when you don't have the same experiences as we do. Perhaps this was a problem at low tiers of War, but it was not at high tiers. Personal experiences DO matter when discussing the meta of a video game.
You're looking for a contradiction in two totally separate conversations out of context. The argument is that Defender Kills are needed for strategy. There is not much strategy involved in setting up a roadblock where the opponent is forced to give up and lose, or keep trying and lose. There is also not much strategy in placing multiples of the same Champs who gain the most Kills. The argument of strategy comes mainly from the side that is accumulating said Wins through cornering the opposition, and it usually references the opponent and how they need to strategize. Lose or lose, is not a strategy. I support the removal of Defender Kills. I'm afraid we have different definitions of strategy. Where there is no possible outcome that can lead to a Win, strategy is irrelevant.
Sorry, but I'm fully capable of discussing the meta of a game regardless of what Tier I'm in. I'm quite intelligent and I have the ability to understand entire systems, and not just the top, middle, or bottom.
in fact defender kills was one of the funnest things about war. it was always a fun talking point after a war "my juggs got 8 defender kills that war sweet!" it made war way more fun and engaging not unfair, thats just ludicrous.
I disagree. This debate is going somewhere. You're incorrectly assuming my goal is to get you to change your mind. That is not my goal. I'm not here to force anyone to agree with me. My goal is to highlight the errors I perceive in your arguments and present counter-arguments that other readers will find convincing, and that goal extends to any devs that might be reading. You and I are one small set of proxies for the players that like the current system and the players that don't. I believe it is useful for the devs and other players to see how those two positions stand up under scrutiny.
The question you have to ask is do you believe you are representing the side of the players that like the system well, and do you believe it serves their interests to continue to create arguments in support of it. I'm only posting because I believe I'm representing my side reasonably well. If I thought I wasn't, I'd stop.
This is not a place to call others out, and it's not a space to fight. You can always disagree with each other, but do so in a respectful manner.
I can infer that there were such players. There are players that have expressed the opinion that any element of the game that grants too high of a benefit to players possessing certain champions is unfair to the players who don't have them and do not play the game in a way that allows them to build larger rosters as quickly as they would like it.
So it is logical to assume that there are players that find certain champions, in particular top ranked Magik, Iceman, etc, too difficult to fight with their rosters and thus getting killed by those champions in AW was "unfair." I'm not saying I agree, just that it is likely such players exist. It is worth noting that many players called Dave's event "unfair" because they did not possess strong power control champs, and some players called the spiderman event unfair because they did not possess strong evade-neutralizing champs (even though that wasn't even really necessary).
It is their right to want what they want just as it is our right to want what we want. It is the responsibility of the devs to arbitrate between competing players when they cannot make both groups happy simultaneously. We all prefer they side with us, of course, but we can judge objectively whether they are fairly judging between different groups across the entire game. Sometimes this side should win, sometimes that side should win. In this case, in the only head to head competitive element of the game, I think it is logical that the players that desire strong competition should win.
Yeah, thats true. But thats more of our daily "I want what that player has but don't want to work towards it or put in the same effort"